hmlove1218
Well-Known Member
Ha! That video.. Honestly IMO he deserved that. Couldn't even show the proper respect to his opponent in the beginning.. Very disrespectful not to bow to your opponent and to shake with one hand.
pH challenge by Dr. Kevin Dunn
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LBussy
Well-Known Member
Oh.
My.
God.
She filled the mold halfway with glycerine ...
I was going to write a rant - I settled for voting it down.
My.
God.
She filled the mold halfway with glycerine ...
I was going to write a rant - I settled for voting it down.
I watched a few painful moments - and also voted it down.
I am not at all surprised there have been no submissions. The people that claim their soap is pH 7 are using syndets, are lying, or are just plain wrong. Anyone using syndets in the bars are automatically exluded (because syndets are not soap), anyone lying has no interest in being caught lying, and the people that really and truly and sincerely believe they are correct will never trust someone else's results.
True believers will always find a rationalization. Always. That scientist guy could just say whatever he wants, whether he tested anything or not, we are supposed to just believe what he says? The video linked in this thread, if that guy has any followers that really believe he can just knock people over without ever touching them, I am certain will come up with a way to claim the fight was fixed. There must have been a magnetic field or something.
As for the glycerin and MP question, oh yes people do believe it. I have seen threads with people complaining that they bought 2 gallons of glycerin and it isn't hardening. They REALLY think that glycerin and MP soap base are synonymous, they do not know the difference. They have and will argue that their soap is pure glycerin and uses no lye.
People will almost never change their minds. Once they "learn" something, that's it, there is no amount of fact or evidence that will sway them. That is the problem with so many things on the internet. If a beginning soapmaker reads that you should use a specific oil as a superfat in CP soap, then use that method for a period of time, you will have a very hard time convincing them that they are wasting their time. That probably plays a part in the MP vs CP wars, wherever you started and what you "learned" in the beginning dicates the attitude about the process. Same with testing pH in general. Well, the person I learned from used strips to test every batch, and I have always tested every batch, that's how I know my soap is safe. Once the mind is made up, don't bother trying to confuse them with facts.
True believers will always find a rationalization. Always. That scientist guy could just say whatever he wants, whether he tested anything or not, we are supposed to just believe what he says? The video linked in this thread, if that guy has any followers that really believe he can just knock people over without ever touching them, I am certain will come up with a way to claim the fight was fixed. There must have been a magnetic field or something.
As for the glycerin and MP question, oh yes people do believe it. I have seen threads with people complaining that they bought 2 gallons of glycerin and it isn't hardening. They REALLY think that glycerin and MP soap base are synonymous, they do not know the difference. They have and will argue that their soap is pure glycerin and uses no lye.
People will almost never change their minds. Once they "learn" something, that's it, there is no amount of fact or evidence that will sway them. That is the problem with so many things on the internet. If a beginning soapmaker reads that you should use a specific oil as a superfat in CP soap, then use that method for a period of time, you will have a very hard time convincing them that they are wasting their time. That probably plays a part in the MP vs CP wars, wherever you started and what you "learned" in the beginning dicates the attitude about the process. Same with testing pH in general. Well, the person I learned from used strips to test every batch, and I have always tested every batch, that's how I know my soap is safe. Once the mind is made up, don't bother trying to confuse them with facts.
Dorymae
Well-Known Member
Perhaps that is true of very narrow minded people, but I don't think it is true of everyone. I try to learn new things and if they conflict with something I learned then I do a bit of research to see if the new idea has merit or whether there is a flaw in the way I learned. Many times I find that what I thought was important was not or that what I thought was a benefit really made no difference at all.
For me without this thought process we no longer grow but become stagnant in our ways and methods.
LBussy
Well-Known Member
I think the "people" new12soap was referring to are the hardheaded people we're generally discussing. 
FGOriold
Well-Known Member
Here is a visual as to what happens to your liquid soap when you attempt to lower the pH beyond what it wants to be - soap is an alkaline product and trying to change the chemical reality of that will alter the make-up of your soap converting it non-soap components and slowly reduce your overall soap content. This in turn reduces the lathering capabilities and the overall functionality as a cleanser.
I have just concluded several tests on lowering pH and how too more accurately measure pH keeping several variables in mind that will affect readings thanks to the many helpful chemists out in the soaping world who so willingly share their knowledge.
All the images and reading results are on my blog (link in signature) as it is way to much information to post it all here.
I have just concluded several tests on lowering pH and how too more accurately measure pH keeping several variables in mind that will affect readings thanks to the many helpful chemists out in the soaping world who so willingly share their knowledge.
All the images and reading results are on my blog (link in signature) as it is way to much information to post it all here.
Thank you so much for sharing, Faith! Many people need to see this!
IrishLass
IrishLass
Testing the Ph
Testing pH in cold process soap is unnecessary, including the silly tongue test. Any scientist knows it's
Testing the pH of cold process soap is completely unnecessary. Trying to manipulate it's pH will change what it is. You never have to test it in any way.
@Bronxboyz, this was a really old thread, but it was really fun to re-read. Does anyone know if any of those people (cough, numbskulls, cough) actually submitted their PH neutral "soap" samples in the Dunn contest? I assume not, since as far as I know there have been no ground-breaking developments in the essential nature of soap in the last 10 years, But it would have been fun to see Kevin Dunn announce the results, even if it was calling them out for not submitting any entries.
IIRC, no one did. Marah (who I think was Lady of 4 here on SMF) put her musings only on her blog after that, rather than argue her case in public forums or on other people's blogs.
Yes, this is an entertaining re-read now, but grew to be exhausting at the time
Edit: I stand corrected -- There was one submission, but it wasn't Marah. The pH was met the parameters of the challenge and the ingredients were acceptable (no syndets), but the soap was no longer functional soap. I gather Dunn added enough alkali to raise the pH so the fatty acids converted back into actual soap and showed the difference
Testing soap, including the zap test and the pH test, is valid when done properly AND interpreted correctly. I wouldn't be so dismissive of this.
Problems arise, however, when people don't understand how to do an accurate pH test on soap. And the problems become worse when people don't understand the underlying chemistry. The result is they draw incorrect conclusions from bad data.
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AliensrReal
Well-Known Member
Reading the previous posts that were referenced in here made my eyes cross. It is very interesting that this was even a debate.
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Maple_Street_Bath
Well-Known Member
I don't think I would take anyone seriously if they use "welp" twice in the first paragraph of their blog. Sorry, I'm judgy like that.
AliensrReal
Well-Known Member
I found this article very interesting. https://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalve.com/blogs/idas-soap-box-blog/what-are-syndets
Ok, here's my first post. Its probably better to say a neutral soap rather than a pH 7 soap. After all, what is a pH 7 soap? Is it pH 7.0? 7.1? 7.2? 6.8? 6.9? Which leads me to ask why it matters that much. But I'm new here, so what do I know? So long as it passes the taste test it's good for me.
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There is no commonly agreed definition of "neutral" in the handcrafted soap making community so, no, that's not better.
Most people who test the pH of soap are using test strips that only read to whole pH units.
Sometimes that's all the precision that's needed -- the user doesn't need pH measured to tenths or better. Nothing wrong with that.
As to the degree of precision needed for soapmaking, pH in tenths is not precise enough either, so this is a moot point
Strictly speaking, pH 7.0 is neutral. Anything above or below is basic or acidic, respectively. Are we talking about bar soap or liquid soap? In theory one could produce a pH 7.0 bar soap directly, but this would require accurate stoichiometric measurements using purified oils. An easier way to make a pH 7.0 bar soap would be to make the soap, then melt it in hot water and add a pH 7.0 sodium phosphate buffer. Then let it solidify and cure. Of course, then you'd have phosphate salts in the soap--a lot or a little depending on how much buffer was needed. A shampoo or liquid soap would be much easier to adjust to pH 7.0 since you wouldn't need to melt it.
In the chemistry field, I agree that pH 7 is considered to be a neutral pH. But in the handcrafted / hobby soap making, that's not the universal meaning. Neutral can mean whatever pH the soap has when it's made with "no lye excess and no fat excess" aka soap made using exact stoichometry. In this context, a "neutral" pH is not a pH of 7.
"...In theory one could produce a pH 7.0 bar soap directly, but this would require accurate stoichiometric measurements using purified oils...."
Soap doesn't work that way, because soap is the neutralization is of a weak acid and a strong base. That type of neutralization will result in an alkaline salt, not a neutral salt. By the time the pH of a lye-based soap drops to 7, it will be entirely fatty acids, not functional soap.
"...A shampoo or liquid soap would be much easier to adjust to pH 7.0 since you wouldn't need to melt it...."
It doesn't matter whether we're talking about bar (NaOH) soap or liquid (KOH) soap. Soap decomposes as the pH drops, whether it's liquid soap or bar soap. The decomposition of liquid soap in response to lowering the pH is even more obvious.
This WHOLE THREAD is devoted to the efforts made to debunk the idea that lye-based soap can have a pH of 7. Or even pH 8. I'd be willing to bet Kevin Dunn would allow you to enter his challenge. If you think the use of a phosphate buffer is able to produce a functional lye-based soap with a pH of 7 ... or even 8 .... I suspect he would be intrigued enough to accept a sample for testing.
I see now and understand the problem and terminology. It might be possible. I may try it for fun. Thank you!
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