pH challenge by Dr. Kevin Dunn

[Dorymae]

You said that very well. I don't really want to see any soap maker embarrassed, but on the other hand some have been VERY vocal about the PH of their soaps. I really wish they would do some homework and realize that what they are saying is simply not possible, unless of course the rules of chemistry are wrong, and if they are they'll be famous for their discovery.

Kevin can't lose, he knows he can't lose, and I understand why he is being rather hard nosed about this. Although as I said I hate to see any soap makers nose rubbed in it.

 

[newbie]

I don't. They should be willing to back up their claims. You shouldn't spout off what you say are facts about your product unless you're willing to stand behind them. Cough up those soaps, I say!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I agree with Newbie - these people making the claims are either knowingly making false claims or unknowingly. If the former, they should indeed have their lies outed, debunked and cleared up. If the latter, then having the chance to learn the actual information is never a bad thing.

It sounds like these soapers aren't willing to look at the possibility that they are wrong, which makes me think they are in the first group - knowing they are wrong but having invested so much in being right on this topic that to consider any thing else is just unthinkable.

 

[reinbeau]

Actually the person making these claims feels she has done her homework and swears up and down she's made the pH of 7 soap happen. She has done lots of homework - whether it was effective homework and homework that will prove her as correct remains to be seen. It is painful, though, because she isn't one to take things on.....easily.

 

[LBussy]

I have "done my homework" and convinced myself of things before only to later have discovered one fatal flaw which changes everything. I've never not learned from those situations though.

While it's true the "soap challenge" was not worded in a manner that was neutral, I think he can get a pass just this once. He's provided ample facts to back up his hypothesis and the fact that people (let's face it, these are not people who have anything near his background/experience) say "yeah but" is a bit of a slap in the face. I see it more as a "gently condescending chuckle," but the offer to have one's soap reviewed by this scholar is a great chance for someone to take up if they really have found this goose that lays golden eggs.

So, if I really DID have such an animal, his manner is something that would goad me even more to prove him wrong. However, I would not want to take up the gauntlet and be wrong.

 

[FGOriold]

Unfortunately some of those who are adamant that their liquid soap can be reduced to a pH of 7 and still be soap (and those who support these claims) are under the impression that they are not responsible for proving said claims and it is the doubters who must prove them wrong. Still, I saw this as an opportunity to settle the issue once and for all as it has been bantered about for months on many outlets/forums/blogs and cannot understand why one would not accept the challenge to settle the issue. It really just makes those with such claims less credible overall and is not how it works. Can you imagine what the world would be like if people could make any claim they wanted and put the onus of disproving the claim onto others? That is not how it works.

 

[LBussy]

But my pH paper is expensive and tells me my shaving soap is pH 7!!!!11111

Yeah, it's too bad we can't subpoena them to provide a sample. Their customers will continue to believe what they say and never see the "inside baseball" that proves them to be a fraud.

 

[Dorymae]

So, if I really DID have such an animal, his manner is something that would goad me even more to prove him wrong. However, I would not want to take up the gauntlet and be wrong.

I agree. As someone with a very strong personality (others have called it, stubborn as a three legged mule, and other things. . .) I found as I've gotten older I try to carefully pick my words.

My father pulled me aside when I was young and told me that he could see I had his stubbornness and gave me some advice. He said, " when you believe you are right, don't back down, not if it is important to you - but when you learn you were wrong you need to stand up and admit it just as adamantly as you fought."

Eating crow is one of the hardest things I've had to do. At times it was extremely embarrassing, but I found that when I did I was respected more for my willingness to do so than to stand stubbornly by a wrong idea.

With age came wisdom, at least the wisdom to keep my mouth shut unless I was reasonably sure. Even now I eat crow occasionally, and the taste has never improved!

 

[LBussy]

 

[Dana89]

I don't know why but I get really angry when someone is completely lying about their soap. I saw a video of a woman who did M&P and as she was melting it she talking about the dangers of mixing Glycerin with aluminim and she added PKO, CO and Shea for lather and a buttload of fresh goats milk to he MP, then she said she had to cure it for 8 weeks.
Yesterday I watched a CP video and in the comments a lady was trashing the soap saying she make her soap with pure Glycerin and even did a vid talking about her 100% glycerin soap with Rose EO! :roll:
I think it bothers me so much b/c I see the comments and people say "I bought a bunch of glycerin and mine won't get hard in the molds, what am I doing wrong". The lady that said her soap was pure glycerin was not just uneducated about making soap, she was flat out lying through her teeth. I am sure it has to say soap base on the label. Then to say CP was gross and yucky made my blood pressure go up. I think that is the main reason that people who make MP say they get hostility from other soapers, because of the few that lie about using a base.
Now if there are going to be people lying about their CP/HP PH level that will create some hostility toward the soaping community as a whole. Whatever you make, CP/HP/MP, if you are honest and educated about your soap and can be proud of it there is no reason to lie and put a dark spot on the soaping community.https://youtu.be/Pldk-XW6b7w

 

[reinbeau]

Oh please, that woman isn't lying, she's an *****. Sorry, but that's all it is. She lives in a fairyland where she thinks as long as she believes it it's true.

 

[Seawolfe]

It makes me INSANE when people make claims that aren't tested by anyone else nor reproducible. I could claim rainbows shooting out of my cats butt, but without independent verification I'm just a crazy cat lady. BECAUSE SCIENCE!!

If he doesn't get any entries, I would really like to see him increase the range to 7.2 first and then 7.4, just to see if those other claims come to anything.

 

[kchaystack]

Oh please, that woman isn't lying, she's an *****. Sorry, but that's all it is. She lives in a fairyland where she thinks as long as she believes it it's true.

While I agree she is pretty out there, this is part of a religion, and that is all religion is - faith. Not anything that can be done about it, because anyone who has that faith will trust it over our facts.

Look at the people who think vaccines are bad for their children. No amount of fact and studies will change their minds.

So you have to do the best to teach those that are open to it, and just try to mitigate the damage.

 

[IrishLass]

While I agree she is pretty out there, this is part of a religion, and that is all religion is - faith.

I can see where the things she says about the herbs may be a part of a religion, but I have my doubts about the glycerin part being a part of it...I think would take a lot of faith to believe that simply pouring hot glycerin into a mold would create soap (she specifically says that all she uses is just glycerin and the herbs). Unless by 'glycerin' she means glycerin soap base, but she does not say that.

IrishLass

 

[Saponista]

This is a prime example of how being completely deluded in your own beliefs, and then having other people who follow you keep feeding into those beliefs can lead to some severe humiliation.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I[/ame]

 

[kchaystack]

I can see where the things she says about the herbs may be a part of a religion, but I have my doubts about the glycerin part being a part of it...I think would take a lot of faith to believe that simply pouring hot glycerin into a mold would create soap (she specifically says that all she uses is just glycerin and the herbs). Unless by 'glycerin' she means glycerin soap base, but she does not say that.

IrishLass

Oh yeah, I think that is just her not understanding what she is using. It has to be glycerin melt and pour. I was more talking about the 'magical' properties of her herbs.

 

[Dorymae]

I watched that video and honestly I don't think she thought she was lying. She was just a bit of a strange duck. It was obvious she was into the mystical, magic and Wicca pretty heavily and in regards to the mystic she was telling about benefits according to that belief.

When she said glycerin, you could tell she meant soap, as in melt and pour. I doubt she has ever seen true glycerin, if she had she would realize it is a liquid and doesn't need melting. I think she just uses the word glycerin instead of M&P. Many people refer to M&P as glycerin soap even though all handcrafted soap could be called glycerin soap.

 

[Dana89]

@ DoryMae- I don,t think she meant soap b/c she said the only ingredients in her soap is Glycerin, herbs and EOs. Rose EOs at that. Plus on the Cp video comment she wrote "yucky, I make 100 percent Glycerin soap, this is full of chemicals" or something to that effect. However she did talk about using color for soap only and not food coloring.
I could have misunderstood her but that is not hard to do when she is talking.
As far as the herbal claims, I think the general public will take that with a grain of salt.
Just looking through youtube I am amazed at how many people believe that you can make soap with lye never being part of the process. Most no-lye videos will say it can,t be done but you can make it without handling it, but some just claim its no lye.

 

[Susie]

I agree. As someone with a very strong personality (others have called it, stubborn as a three legged mule, and other things. . .) I found as I've gotten older I try to carefully pick my words.

My father pulled me aside when I was young and told me that he could see I had his stubbornness and gave me some advice. He said, " when you believe you are right, don't back down, not if it is important to you - but when you learn you were wrong you need to stand up and admit it just as adamantly as you fought."

Eating crow is one of the hardest things I've had to do. At times it was extremely embarrassing, but I found that when I did I was respected more for my willingness to do so than to stand stubbornly by a wrong idea.

With age came wisdom, at least the wisdom to keep my mouth shut unless I was reasonably sure. Even now I eat crow occasionally, and the taste has never improved!

^This. Exactly, precisely, this. My daddy had pretty much the exact same talk with me. The taste of crow has never improved, I occasionally avoid it by thinking better before I speak.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Just watched some of that video.

Oh


my


word!