pH challenge by Dr. Kevin Dunn

coffeetime · Feb 25, 2015

This was posted on Facebook this morning. It applies to both bar soap and liquid.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1080560095293056&id=123574497658292

Hopefully that link works. You might need to be on Facebook to see it.

Dorymae · Feb 25, 2015

My prediction : Not only will he not " eat crow" but he will prove that most people do not know how to properly use a PH meter.

Sadly the people he proves wrong will still be adamant that their soap is PH neutral.

I'll be interested to see the result.

Susie · Feb 25, 2015

Those were exactly my thoughts. But I am now following that on FB, so we'll see. It will be nice, however, to have a definitive link to give people to read when they come insisting that they can make "neutral" soap, or that their pH strips or meters SAID it was pH 7.

IrishLass · Feb 25, 2015

Sweet! :-D

IrishLass

DeeAnna · Feb 25, 2015

Susan (swiftcraftymonkey) has taken as much or more fire on this topic as Dunn has. I gather there are a number of soapers who passionately support the soaper making the claim of having made a "pH 7 soap", but no one in that camp can provide the method by which this particular soap can be made.

For those wanting to know what the debate is all about, start here:
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2011/12/doves-beauty-barjust-few-thoughts.html (look for the long discussion in the comments between Susan and "Lady Marah")

More:
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2015/02/chemistry-thursday-all-about-acids.html
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2015/02/we-have-interesting-challenge-for-all.html

Even SMF has had some sideline involvement in this controversy:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=48250 (look for comments by "Lady of 4")
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=43328

Lady Marah's blog:
http://whitetiger0603.blogspot.ca/2014/09/the-sapnoifier-magazine-rebuttal.html

I am curious to see if Lady Marah aka Lady of 4 will accept Dunn's gauntlet.

Saponista · Feb 25, 2015

I will be watching this with great interest.

Dorymae · Feb 25, 2015

DeeAnna said:
Susan (swiftcraftymonkey) has taken as much or more fire on this topic as Dunn has. I gather there are a number of soapers who passionately support the soaper making the claim of having made a "pH 7 soap", but no one in that camp can provide the method by which this particular soap can be made.

For those wanting to know what the debate is all about, start here:
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2011/12/doves-beauty-barjust-few-thoughts.html (look for the long discussion in the comments between Susan and "Lady Marah")

More:
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2015/02/chemistry-thursday-all-about-acids.html
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2015/02/we-have-interesting-challenge-for-all.html

Even SMF has had some sideline involvement in this controversy:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=48250 (look for comments by "Lady of 4")
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=43328

Lady Marah's blog:
http://whitetiger0603.blogspot.ca/2014/09/the-sapnoifier-magazine-rebuttal.html

I am curious to see if Lady Marah aka Lady of 4 will accept Dunn's gauntlet.

At the bottom of her blog, she has accepted the challenge. Oh boy, this should be good!

AMyers · Feb 25, 2015

So why is it so important to have pH 7 soap? In general, the higher pH soaps we make (properly) don't burn us, and often can be good for our skin, so what's the reasoning for this? Just to say they can?

lpstephy85 · Feb 25, 2015

AMyers said:
So why is it so important to have pH 7 soap? In general, the higher pH soaps we make (properly) don't burn us, and often can be good for our skin, so what's the reasoning for this? Just to say they can?

My theory on the reasoning for this is marketing, plain and simple. I have had many a customer because Dove (being a syndent) is able to have a pH of 7 people think that all soaps, especially handmade because they are "all natural" should have that as well and I have to educate them on the difference between soaps. People believe everything they read or hear and think that soap has to be neutral for it to be safe for their skin.

DeeAnna · Feb 25, 2015

I have written about 3 responses and decided I should just say this:
Yes, I think the original spark for this was the idea that low pH cleansers = safe for skin.
I also think there may be some gratification or amusement created by the ongoing drama.

Susie · Feb 25, 2015

^Exactly what Ipstephy85 said. It has no bearing on the reality of safety or effectiveness. People get hung up on that number, and it is extremely difficult to convince them otherwise. This forum has lots of those discussions. That and the, "You can make soap with no lye, so-and-so does" mindset have to be the worst two things to convince people of.

Dorymae · Feb 27, 2015

DeeAnna said:
I also think there may be some gratification or amusement created by the ongoing drama.

I think this is the high and low of it.

DeeAnna · Apr 5, 2015

Interesting update from Susan's (swiftcraftymonkey) latest newsletter:

"...Don't forget about Kevin Dunn's soapmaking challenge! He's had no submissions so far, which kinda weirds me out as there were some very vocal soapmakers who should have jumped at the chance to prove me and the other doubters out there wrong. I really am eager to see what the results might be!..."

Source: http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2015/04/weekend-wonderings-reminder-about.html

The Efficacious Gentleman · Apr 5, 2015

Well, I am shocked to my core that no soapers have taken up the gauntlet thus far.

abc · Apr 5, 2015

I'm surprised. There were several soapers, who claimed to have neutral soap, promise to send them in on Dunn's Facebook post.

Seawolfe · Apr 5, 2015

I will not be sending in my perfectly newtral soap because they will discern my seekrit recipe from my precious soapz and steal ALL my moneyz!!

DeeAnna · Apr 5, 2015

Seawolfe ... I'm sooo disappointed in you!

Seriously, I have to say Dunn's challenge is unfortunately not worded in neutral language -- he is borderline derisive in his Facebook post rather than presenting his challenge in a civil manner. I think that's a bit of a mark against him, especially since he is a scholar by profession.

That said, if I was a truly passionate advocate about my "perfectly newtral seekrit recipe soap", I would accept his challenge and find out if my product really is what I think it is. And if it's not, why not and what would I need to do to solve the problem. At the very least, how else could someone get several hundred dollars worth of lab analysis for free?

The Efficacious Gentleman · Apr 5, 2015

Aye, while it is clear that he is out to prove wrong rather than be proven wrong, if someone actually believes that they make a real soap with a pH of 7 then they should step up. If they have any doubts, then they are wrong to make their claims.

I just wish that there would be a way of knowing which of these proponents of pH 7 soaps had actually seen the challenge but turned tail at the chance..................

reinbeau · Apr 5, 2015

He is calling out someone specifically. I've been following this for awhile. It's an ego fest, really, between three people. We'll see how it ends up.

DeeAnna · Apr 5, 2015

The players in this drama that I know about are mentioned in Post 5 in this thread. I'm not friends nor acquaintances with any of them ... I'm just familiar with them due to their involvement in things soapy. On one hand, I find the situation fascinating, but on the other hand, I find it rather painful and sad. I'm like a little kid watching a scary movie by peeking through my fingers at the TV.

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