Soy Wax Users

[Mobjack Bay]

I have recently soaped successfully with an oil temp of 36 degrees (which is just under your 100 degrees) and I use GW415 or similar replacement if it is currently available ( with COVID it’s been a nightmare to get stuff). I use it at 20% of my recipe.

Wow, I need to know your secret. I have major problems with acceleration if I drop the temp below 120F for my recipe (20% GW 415), which also has 10% shea. Maybe it’s the lye concentration? I‘m typically using > 35% LC to cut back on ash.

@ResolvableOwl I had never heard of sunflower wax. I found it in the US for about 10x the price of GW415 and 5x price of cocoa butter. (eta: I just noticed your earlier post about the prices of sunflower wax, and have now registered that you’re looking for hydrogenated soy)

This one, from US Amazon (SZ brand) doesn’t sound hydrogenated:”Sunflower Wax is a hard, fine crystalline (almost powder like), plant wax made through the winterization of sunflower oil (cooling oil very slowly and extracting high melting parts of it during the process).

Then there’s this one, from TheHerbarie.com. C-42 to C-60 ?!
“Sunflower Wax Pastilles consist of long chain saturated C-42 to C-60 esters derived from fatty alcohols and fatty acids.”

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Yeah, like mentioned before, there is an unfortunate naming overlap. For one, there is the “cera”/wax (in the true chemical sense, C42-C60 monoesters) from sunflower kernels (winterisation byproduct, no chemical treatment), that is used in % amounts for specialty things like lipsticks.
On the other hand, hydrogenated sunflower oil is chemically syntesised from the triglyceride oil in the same way as soy wax from soybean oil, and is mostly the same C16-C18 triglycerides like every other oil/fat. The latter is the one that is interesting for soapmaking, but difficult to spot, since, as you found out, the former has a greater mindshare.
It's (currently) only a theoretical issue for me, since I'm happy with canola “wax” (hydrogenated canola oil), which is easy enough for me to get, to not worry about hydrogenated sunflower oil.

May I ask what is your rationale for combining soy wax (mostly C18) with shea butter (also mostly C18)? I'm asking because I find a recipe that is somewhat balanced between C16 (palmitic) and C18 (stearic) more pleasing, softer (in a positive sense), more “vivid” and less “stone” like, and easier to lather up.
Depending on field of application, I usually accomplish this with the pairings canola wax (mostly C18 too) + japan wax (mostly C16), or cocoa butter + canola wax, or palm stearin + canola wax. Or add the palmitic acid via rice bran oil.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Yeah, like mentioned before, there is an unfortunate naming overlap. For one, there is the “cera”/wax (in the true chemical sense, C42-C60 monoesters) from sunflower kernels (winterisation byproduct, no chemical treatment), that is used in % amounts for specialty things like lipsticks.
On the other hand, hydrogenated sunflower oil is chemically syntesised from the triglyceride oil in the same way as soy wax from soybean oil, and is mostly the same C16-C18 triglycerides like every other oil/fat. The latter is the one that is interesting for soapmaking, but difficult to spot, since, as you found out, the former has a greater mindshare.
It's (currently) only a theoretical issue for me, since I'm happy with canola “wax” (hydrogenated canola oil), which is easy enough for me to get, to not worry about hydrogenated sunflower oil.

May I ask what is your rationale for combining soy wax (mostly C18) with shea butter (also mostly C18)? I'm asking because I find a recipe that is somewhat balanced between C16 (palmitic) and C18 (stearic) more pleasing, softer (in a positive sense), more “vivid” and less “stone” like, and easier to lather up.
Depending on field of application, I usually accomplish this with the pairings canola wax (mostly C18 too) + japan wax (mostly C16), or cocoa butter + canola wax, or palm stearin + canola wax. Or add the palmitic acid via rice bran oil.

I also use 10% Shea in mine. I don’t have much palmitic in my recipe other than that in the RBO, Avocado and OO.
@Mobjack Bay my lye conc is 30%

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Yeah, like mentioned before, there is an unfortunate naming overlap. For one, there is the “cera”/wax (in the true chemical sense, C42-C60 monoesters) from sunflower kernels (winterisation byproduct, no chemical treatment), that is used in % amounts for specialty things like lipsticks.
On the other hand, hydrogenated sunflower oil is chemically syntesised from the triglyceride oil in the same way as soy wax from soybean oil, and is mostly the same C16-C18 triglycerides like every other oil/fat. The latter is the one that is interesting for soapmaking, but difficult to spot, since, as you found out, the former has a greater mindshare.
It's (currently) only a theoretical issue for me, since I'm happy with canola “wax” (hydrogenated canola oil), which is easy enough for me to get, to not worry about hydrogenated sunflower oil.

May I ask what is your rationale for combining soy wax (mostly C18) with shea butter (also mostly C18)? I'm asking because I find a recipe that is somewhat balanced between C16 (palmitic) and C18 (stearic) more pleasing, softer (in a positive sense), more “vivid” and less “stone” like, and easier to lather up.
Depending on field of application, I usually accomplish this with the pairings canola wax (mostly C18 too) + japan wax (mostly C16), or cocoa butter + canola wax, or palm stearin + canola wax. Or add the palmitic acid via rice bran oil.

Due to RBO being one of the liquid oils in my soy wax recipe (at 30%), the palmitic and stearic are balanced at 13:13. I added shea to up the longevity because that’s what I had on hand when I formulated the recipe. At that point I was not resolving the difference between stearic and palmitic. I like my soy wax recipe quite a bit, but have always felt that it lacks just a little something in terms of how the lather layers (not enough intermediate size bubbles - the “cushiony” foam). Based on other soaps I’ve made, I thought that layer was from the oleic, but there’s plenty of oleic in my soy wax recipe. After reading @Orla’s thread and testing another maker’s soap made with cocoa butter (but not soy wax), I bought cocoa butter to try in lieu of the shea. I’m hoping a tip towards more palmitic FA will give my soy wax recipe that missing oomph I’m looking for.

@KiwiMoose Thanks. I will try lower temp and lower lye conc together. Will let you know how it goes!

 

[Rune]

Does anybody know the fatty acid profile of Naturewax C3? Or how much stearic acid it has? I have found out that it is partially hydrogenated. But how much is that? 10, 30 or 80 percent or what?

Naturewax C3 is produced by Cargill, but I can't find any useful information anywhere. Candle waxes are very difficult to research in comparison to oils and butters. You will usually only find candle related information that is useless for soapmakers. I have not asked Cargill for more information. But maybe some of you might know something more than I do about Naturewax C3 or other waxes that are available in Europe?

 

[earlene]

I have contacted Cargill in the past and their answers tend to be rather generic without much detail useful to the discerning soap maker. But if you do get a more definitive answer, please share!

I have found these, but not much in terms of what you are asking:
http://gatewayfoodproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/GFP_Waxes_C3.pdfhttps://www.cargill.com/doc/1432078142161/naturewax-c-3-data-sheet.pdf
And neither mentions anything about being partially hydrogenated. And particularly no mention of a Saponification number.

Another member, @SeaSuds has mentioned using Naturewax C3 in soap in a couple of threads here. She hasn't posted since April, but perhaps if you contact her she might have something to share.

 

[Quanta]

I have contacted Cargill in the past and their answers tend to be rather generic without much detail useful to the discerning soap maker. But if you do get a more definitive answer, please share!

I have found these, but not much in terms of what you are asking:
http://gatewayfoodproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/GFP_Waxes_C3.pdfhttps://www.cargill.com/doc/1432078142161/naturewax-c-3-data-sheet.pdf
And neither mentions anything about being partially hydrogenated. And particularly no mention of a Saponification number.

Another member, @SeaSuds has mentioned using Naturewax C3 in soap in a couple of threads here. She hasn't posted since April, but perhaps if you contact her she might have something to share.

I have worked with C3 for candles, and I have worked with fully hydrogenated soybean oil. I can guarantee you that C3 is partially hydrogenated. It is probably similar to GW 464 which is supposedly somewhere around 35% hydrogenated, IIRC.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

The official data sheet:
https://www.cargill.com/doc/1432078142161/naturewax-c-3-data-sheet.pdfisn't really enlightening (@earlene posted it quicker than me!). Guessing from reports about GW415 and the given melting/dropping point/pouring temperature, I'd say it is indeed partially hydrogenated. That means that besides some oleic, and stearic/palmitic acid, it also contains a lot of elaidic acid (trans-oleic), that the usual soap calculators can't deal with anyway.
So just how much stearic acid C-3 has, is of limited use. Even if you knew the saponification value.

[ETA: earlene's other data sheet mentions an iodine value of 55–65, which is about half of the value of pure soybean oil, i. e. it is half hydrogenated. This is consistent with about 1:2 of saturated:mono-unsaturated FAs, the latter of which, again, isn't clear if oleic or elaidic acid, with similar IV but vastly different properties in soap.]

Cargill also makes Naturewax C-3S out of sunflower oil (for the GMO soy skeptical Europeans), for similar applications, and with similar issues (unknown SAP, unknown sat/unsat ratio).

 

[Charmed Heart]

Does anybody know the fatty acid profile of Naturewax C3? Or how much stearic acid it has? I have found out that it is partially hydrogenated. But how much is that? 10, 30 or 80 percent or what?

Naturewax C3 is produced by Cargill, but I can't find any useful information anywhere. Candle waxes are very difficult to research in comparison to oils and butters. You will usually only find candle related information that is useless for soapmakers. I have not asked Cargill for more information. But maybe some of you might know something more than I do about Naturewax C3 or other waxes that are available in Europe?

Hello, I apologize for not doing a complete search for your information requested - I have a meeting in 30 minutes, so I didn't look to see if a hydrogenation profile is in here, you want, re: hydrogenation info is listed, but here are the SDS and Product Handling Guide for C-3 wax. If this info would be anywhere, I would think it would be in one of these documents.

Does anybody know the fatty acid profile of Naturewax C3? Or how much stearic acid it has? I have found out that it is partially hydrogenated. But how much is that? 10, 30 or 80 percent or what?

Naturewax C3 is produced by Cargill, but I can't find any useful information anywhere. Candle waxes are very difficult to research in comparison to oils and butters. You will usually only find candle related information that is useless for soapmakers. I have not asked Cargill for more information. But maybe some of you might know something more than I do about Naturewax C3 or other waxes that are available in Europe?

Are these of any help?

 

[Rune]

Thank you so much @earlene, @Quanta @ResolvableOwl and @Charmed Heart for your answers

I read one place, but I don't remember where, that it was partially hydrogenated. And that makes sense, I don't think it is fully hydrogenated. But the safety data sheet says: Soybean oil, hydrogentated >95%, which is almost fully hydrogenated, or fully hydrogenated + additives. That is a much higher hydrogenation level than I could imagine! Which is strange, that must mean it contains close to 87% stearic acid! Can that really be? I can hardly believe, but yes, who knows.

@ResolvableOwl do you know which properties elaidic acid (trans-oleic) has in soap? Is it good or bad or just acceptable? I have made soap with Naturewax C3 and that soaps were allright, so elaidic acid can't be too bad.

If I knew how much stearic acid that wax or other waxes have, it would be easier to create recipes. I do love stearic acid in soaps (makes a shaving soap like lather), so I want to use something with a higher level of it, something that is not too expensive. So soy wax seemed as a good idea. But I'm not too happy with it. I have tried rapeseed wax as well, not too happy with that either. But it might be the fault of the rest of the recipe and not the waxes. None of those waxes are bad in any way, just not as wonderful as I would like, or hoped (if not the recipe is too blame, which very well might be). I have now bought both palm oil and shea butter, so I hope those in companion with soy wax, coconut, castor and olive can make a better soap, something similar as the soaps I made before (when I used a vegetable shortening type of product that made soaps with an absolutely wonderful feel, but they suddenly changed the recipe dramatically)

 

[ResolvableOwl]

But the safety data sheet says: Soybean oil, hydrogentated >95%

No. This specification just means that more than 95% of the wax is made up by hydrogen-treated soybean oil, and (sadly!) tells you nothing about the degree how far its unsaturation has been removed.
Also, hydrogenation is a misleading term, since besides actual addition of hydrogen (to convert linole(n)ic acid to less unsaturated FAs in the first place), the major reaction is the cis→trans conversion that doesn't use hydrogen, but still makes fats (and the soap made out of them) higher-melting and harder.
The Gateway data sheet (thx to @earlene) mentions the iodine value, from which one can conclude the degree of hydrogenation to roughly 50%.

I have no way to positively tell anything about elaidic acid specifically. Only I'm frequently using canola wax (partially hydrogenated by similar heuristics) in my recipes. So far it's in line with my expectations of behaving mostly like stearic acid, both in soapmaking (melting temp, stearic spots, turbidity of liquid soap) and unmoulding hardness/usage longevity in bar soaps. This make sense from the molecule shape (straight instead of the bent carbon chains of cis-FAs). I haven't found downsides yet, nor I know from others. Trans fats have a bad rep for increasing risk of heart attack when part of the diet, but I don't worry about this since soap is rinse-off, and when I make soap to soothe my heart, then only in the metaphorical sense .

When I'm using canola wax, I enter it into soap calculators as “100% hydrogenated soybean oil” (which is essentially pure stearic acid), since I've titrated the SAP and found it very similar to that, and I'm not adding overly much of it anyway (<20%).
It might well be that it is weaker “hardening” than proper stearic acid (like FFA-type crystalline palm stearin), but it's “hard enough for my needs”, and I like working with it (not terribly prone to false trace). In any case, I'd give it a higher “hardness rating” than shea/cocoa/mango/cupuaçu butter or palm stearin (fractionated palm oil). Though it means tedious work and patience, there is hardly any way around a few cycles of trial-and-error to familiarise with such an ingredient.

How much do you distinguish between stearic and palmitic acid? Palm oil is a mediocre source for stearic acid, but brings tons of palmitic acid, which behaves similar, but not identical to stearic acid. And either hard oil will bring at least 40% of cis-oleic acid – i. e. you have to steal some of the liquid oil dosage of your recipe too, which you could do with “waxes” (partially hydrogenated oils) just as well.

 

[Rune]

Thank you for a fabulous answer @ResolvableOwl

I should have thought that >95% hydrogenated also could mean partially hydrogenated or whatever level. Here in Norway hydrogenated can't be written on labels. It has to say if it is fully or partially hydrogenated. So I should have thought that hydrogenated is just an unspecified term.

I have used canola wax (or actually it was called rapeseed wax, but it is basically the same) and I found it to be very, very easy to work with. Too easy actually. I have never had such a fluid batter, and I poured too early, meaning I made a mess since the soap ran outside the liner of my clumsy lined mold. But I did use as low as a 30% lye solution, I would normally use 40%. I added extra water because I was a little worried if 35% wax (30% rapeseed and 5% soy) could make it accellerate too fast. But it didn't accellerate at all, so it was not necessary to add extra water.

I can't remember why, but I added the rapeseed wax as kokum butter in the lye calculator. I probably had a reason. But it has the same SAP as hydrogenated soybean oil anyway, and since you have titrated yours, mine is hopefully roughly the same.

Since Naturewax C3 is roughly 50% that means roughly 40-45% stearic acid. Which is good, actually. But not too good either. I wish it was a little higher.

I found my soaps made with wax (either soy or rapeseed) and coconut as the only hard oils to have a sort of soft oil feel to them. So I have bought both palm and shea to try to balance that out and at the same time reduce the amount of olive oil in the recipe. Shea should probably help, since that shortening product I used in my old soaps had shea listed first on the label. I have high hopes for shea, I must admit. But also for palm. I have actually bought a soap or a few (!) called Sterilan in the grocery store, and it is a 100% palm soap (palm kernel and palm oil). That soap it is amazing! I love it, but I don't like to buy soaps, so I bought palm oil instead

One reason for why I want to find something very high in stearic acid (or palmitic acid or both) is because I don't want to use too little olive oil. A very strange thing to say, but olive is cheap and available, while other things are not (meaning I have to buy from abroad and pay high shipping costs + double VAT or pay a fortune for a little amount if I can find at all in this country). I hoped soy wax could be the magic trick and solve everything, but it is not. It does help to add some extra hardness and such, yes, and is great when using dual lye. But I wonder if a pillar blend could be better than the softer container blend?

 

[earlene]

@Rune, at least you can make some small experimental batches, and perhaps come up with a formula that fits your financial goals as well as the hardness factors you are looking for. It's worth a try.

I hope that @SeaSuds comes along and shares her experience, since I think she is the only one here most recently who used this product and found it to be good in soap. Maybe you can send her a PM and get a quicker response that way. (Maybe not, but it's worth a try.)

 

[Rune]

Thanks @earlene

Naturewax C3 works well in soap. It doesn't make any problems or anything. And the soaps I have made with it have been allright. When I think about it, I think it is the rest of my formulation that have not been the best, with too much soft oil I guess. So I will try again. I really should make small experimental batches to come up with a recipe that can be my go-to recipe, but since I'm almost out of soap since I haven't been soaping for ages, I think I will just make two soaps in a row and then do those experiments later. I also have some old oils that must be turned in to soap before they go rancid.

 

[DMack]

It's higher in palmitic, plus it adds a bit more creaminess to the lather. And it is sooooo cheap!


The bars are lovely to use. You can even leave them soaking in their own water and they retain firmness without turning to sludge. Here's some pics:
View attachment 35191 View attachment 35192 View attachment 35193 View attachment 35194


You mean soy wax?

Gorgeous soap. This is 20% soy wax? I got the link here to do some reading up on soy/rice bran oil as an alternative to palm

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I have no way to positively tell anything about elaidic acid specifically. Only I'm frequently using canola wax (partially hydrogenated by similar heuristics) in my recipes. So far it's in line with my expectations of behaving mostly like stearic acid, both in soapmaking (melting temp, stearic spots, turbidity of liquid soap) and unmoulding hardness/usage longevity in bar soaps. This make sense from the molecule shape (straight instead of the bent carbon chains of cis-FAs). well.

Oh, this is very interesting, specifically how the shape of the molecule makes it behave more like a stearic fatty acid (correct?). It makes total sense now that I have a heightened awareness of the importance of the molecule shape/configuration. I think this may help to explain why my soy wax (GW 415) soaps always seem a little harder than I expect based on the fatty acid profile I estimated and posted in another thread.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Gorgeous soap. This is 20% soy wax? I got the link here to do some reading up on soy/rice bran oil as an alternative to palm

Och Aye 20% soy wax, and 20% RBO

 

[LynetteO]

Can you order from the USA Alfa?

I live in US, where would you recommend I purchase soy wax from? That is the one ingredient I CAN’T from my local soap/lotion supplier.

 

[Vicki C]

I live in US, where would you recommend I purchase soy wax from? That is the one ingredient I CAN’T from my local soap/lotion supplier.

They have it at the big craft stores (hobby lobby, michaels) in the candle section.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Golden Wax 415 Soy Wax

I live in US, where would you recommend I purchase soy wax from? That is the one ingredient I CAN’T from my local soap/lotion supplier.