How much citric acid for this recipe?

[pjknight]

One percent is 0.01. Ten percent is 0.1. If your total fat weight is 2,268 grams (rounded up because that tiny amount isn't going to be easily measured outside of a lab), then 1 percent citric acid will be 22.68 grams (2,268 x 0.01). Then, per the formula from DeeAnna's site, 22.68 x 6.24 = 141.5, and 141.5 divided by 10 = 14.15. So you would add an extra 14 grams of lye to keep your superfat the same for the recipe you're using.

I confess to often just asking my phone to calculate for me: "Hey Siri, what is 1.5 percent of [some number]?"

 

[pjknight]

Dee just mentioned I should probably use the higher amount instead of the smaller amount Ken suggested. So if I use 2 % would that be 45.36 grams? would the lye increase be 14.36 grams? seems like alot of citric acid and extra lye

 

[A-Polly]

Dee just mentioned I should probably use the higher amount instead of the smaller amount Ken suggested. So if I use 2 % would that be 45.36 grams? would the lye increase be 14.36 grams? seems like alot of citric acid and extra lye

Either 1 or 2 percent is fine — or even 0.5 percent, or 1.5 percent, or numbers in between! It's up to you and how things work with your recipe, your typical water, and your environment. I don't use more than 1 percent or 1.5 percent, because citrate crystals tend to form with my usual recipes and very humid weather when I use more than that. And I don't like them, at all. The bars also seem more drying, but that might be just my imagination.

Ha ha, I'm really not the person to be talking about math and should shut up right this minute
but yes, using 2 percent of your oil weight means 45.36 grams of citric acid, but that works out to 28.3 grams of extra lye to maintain the same superfat (45.36 x 6.24 = 283 then 283 / 10 = 28.3)*. Rounding the numbers for easier measuring should be okay here. Good luck!

*And if I'm doing this wrong, someone please, please, please correct me!

 

[pjknight]

Either 1 or 2 percent is fine — or even 0.5 percent, or 1.5 percent, or numbers in between! It's up to you and how things work with your recipe, your typical water, and your environment. I don't use more than 1 percent or 1.5 percent, because citrate crystals tend to form with my usual recipes and very humid weather when I use more than that. And I don't like them, at all. The bars also seem more drying, but that might be just my imagination.

Ha ha, I'm really not the person to be talking about math and should shut up right this minute
but yes, using 2 percent of your oil weight means 45.36 grams of citric acid, but that works out to 28.3 grams of extra lye to maintain the same superfat (45.36 x 6.24 = 283 then 283 / 10 = 28.3)*. Rounding the numbers for easier measuring should be okay here. Good luck!

*And if I'm doing this wrong, someone please, please, please correct me!

So... if I go with 1% the amount would be 22.67 grams citric acid and extra lye 6.24. I think....

 

[Ekuzo]

So... if I go with 1% the amount would be 22.67 grams citric acid and extra lye 6.24. I think....

22.67 gr of citric acid consumes 22.67 times 0.624 gr of NaOH, which comes to 14.15 gr of additional NaOH. You can do it, it's not that difficult

If you don't pay attention to the numbers, that can lead to disappointment, or worse - soap that's unsafe to use.

An easier option for you would be to use the SMF lye calculator - which has citric acid as an additive from the start and gives you the weight of hydroxide you need to use to make up for it - so no need for all that math while playing it safe, the choice is yours

 

[A-Polly]

So... if I go with 1% the amount would be 22.67 grams citric acid and extra lye 6.24. I think....

Nope, not quite. As @Ekuzo kindly pointed out, using 1 percent citric acid means you should add 14 grams of extra lye for the amount of oils you specified. If you refer back to Post #19, I wrote the formula out for 1 percent. Hope it's clear, but the article on @DeeAnna's site goes into much more detail and is highly recommended: Soapy Stuff About Citric Acid and more...
Don't worry, once you have read and re-read the article many times and continue to plug your numbers into the formula DeeAnna provides, one day you'll find it has become second nature to you. Really truly, it will all make sense!

 

[pjknight]

thank you so much! and i am going to check out the smf lye calculator!

Nope, not quite. As @Ekuzo kindly pointed out, using 1 percent citric acid means you should add 14 grams of extra lye for the amount of oils you specified. If you refer back to Post #19, I wrote the formula out for 1 percent. Hope it's clear, but the article on @DeeAnna's site goes into much more detail and is highly recommended: Soapy Stuff About Citric Acid and more...
Don't worry, once you have read and re-read the article many times and continue to plug your numbers into the formula DeeAnna provides, one day you'll find it has become second nature to you. Really truly, it will all make sense!

 

[pjknight]

thank you so much for the information. I appreciate all the help here and will be checking out the lyc calc. too. Ive been having such problems with DOS. Been making soap for 30 years, and this is the first time I've had this problem. Tried ROE with no success. I am hoping the citric acid does the trick!

 

[Ekuzo]

thank you so much for the information. I appreciate all the help here and will be checking out the lyc calc. too. Ive been having such problems with DOS. Been making soap for 30 years, and this is the first time I've had this problem. Tried ROE with no success. I am hoping the citric acid does the trick!

What was it that you changed in your process/ingredients that led to your soap developing DOS only now? It could be related to the freshness of the oils, the FA profile of the recipe, the way you store the bars, the water you use - among others.

Just using ROE, citric acid and/or any other antioxidant/chelator/conservant does not guarantee you won't get DOS - for example, it's said that below and above certain % some additives are just not effective in soap. Pay attention to the amount, you don't want to use too little or too much. It's reported that a combo of a couple of different such additives works well, so you'll have to experiment to see what you like the best and relates to your recipes/ingredients.

 

[pjknight]

what exactly is the FA profile? I store the soap as I always have. I also run a dehumidifier to keep humidity in check around 40-55% in summer. I use Distilled water, and I store all the oils in the freezer or refrigerator until I use them. I always check the shelf life of all my oils, and so to with the scents. I don't think much has changed in the way I make the soap. so I'm really at a loss, except maybe tyhe FA profile you speak of which I will need to check on....

 

[Ekuzo]

what exactly is the FA profile? I store the soap as I always have. I also run a dehumidifier to keep humidity in check around 40-55% in summer. I use Distilled water, and I store all the oils in the freezer or refrigerator until I use them. I always check the shelf life of all my oils, and so to with the scents. I don't think much has changed in the way I make the soap. so I'm really at a loss, except maybe tyhe FA profile you speak of which I will need to check on....

When you use a calculator to make your recipe, you always get a page dedicated to the result and the theoretical features of the soap. Part of that page is the FA (fatty acid) profile ‐ meaning the percentages of the main fatty acids used, depending on the oils you have and the percentages of each. Oils with high percentage of linoleic and linolenic fatty acids usually spoil faster. For that reason, a lot of people keep their combined % at 15% or lower. I personally limit them to 10% because I like it that way (high % of those can also lead to a softer bar). One of the more popular and cheap oils high in those FA is sunflower oil.

However, if your recipes haven't changed over the years and it was fine before, maybe the reason lurks somewhere else. On what surface do you cure your soap?

 

[pjknight]

last year I added hemp oil to the mix. I know about the fatty acid profiles. Just didnt get the abbreviations.! The fatty acid profile is 16% for both Lino acids. I know that Hemp is high in Lino acids. But I thought 1% wouldnt be a problem, but seems like it may be. I cure my soap on parchment paper or Freezer paper covered racks. (Coated metal not raw metal racks). My. bars are very hard, not soft at all.

 

[pjknight]

When you use a calculator to make your recipe, you always get a page dedicated to the result and the theoretical features of the soap. Part of that page is the FA (fatty acid) profile ‐ meaning the percentages of the main fatty acids used, depending on the oils you have and the percentages of each. Oils with high percentage of linoleic and linolenic fatty acids usually spoil faster. For that reason, a lot of people keep their combined % at 15% or lower. I personally limit them to 10% because I like it that way (high % of those can also lead to a softer bar). One of the more popular and cheap oils high in those FA is sunflower oil.

However, if your recipes haven't changed over the years and it was fine before, maybe the reason lurks somewhere else. On what surface do you cure your soap?

 

[pjknight]

Just throwing this all out there. this is the percentages of my oils I am using, .cocoa butter 12.5%. coconut oil 31.25%, palm oil, 25%, hemp oil, 12.5 %, olive oil, 18.75%. Reason I am mentioning it is because, I am wondering if the balance of oils is off and that is what is causing DOS. I am considering using vitamin E along with ROE, rather than Citric acid. The quality of the bars on the Calculator fall right in the middle of the ranges for hardnes, cleansing, conditioning, bubblly, etc. When I am looking at the results of the soap calc, I feel like the answer is staring me in the face and I'm just blind to it!!

 

[Ekuzo]

Looking at the profile of hemp oil, it shows lino acids content around 80%, which is more than sunflower. Sunflower shows around 70%. When I use sunflower, I get DOS even with 10% of the total oil weight and with added citric acid - that's why I just stopped using it. And theoretically, hemp is supposed to be even more prone to fast spoilage than sunflower, judging from those numbers (yes, they are far from correct for every batch of every vendor, but that's what we got). Maybe citric acid just doesn't provide enough of an effect with those oils, and that's the reason a lot of people add ROE when using them. I would bet my money on hemp being the reason for the DOS here.

If you like hemp oil and you wish to keep using it, maybe you need to drop the hemp % a bit (like, to 5% instead of 12.5%) and add something stronger than citric acid, as you mentioned you'd like to try. Try different combinations of chelators/antioxidants and see what works best for your recipe, I'm sure there will be a noticeable difference!

 

[pjknight]

Looking at the profile of hemp oil, it shows lino acids content around 80%, which is more than sunflower. Sunflower shows around 70%. When I use sunflower, I get DOS even with 10% of the total oil weight and with added citric acid - that's why I just stopped using it. And theoretically, hemp is supposed to be even more prone to fast spoilage than sunflower, judging from those numbers (yes, they are far from correct for every batch of every vendor, but that's what we got). Maybe citric acid just doesn't provide enough of an effect with those oils, and that's the reason a lot of people add ROE when using them. I would bet my money on hemp being the reason for the DOS here.

If you like hemp oil and you wish to keep using it, maybe you need to drop the hemp % a bit (like, to 5% instead of 12.5%) and add something stronger than citric acid, as you mentioned you'd like to try. Try different combinations of chelators/antioxidants and see what works best for your recipe, I'm sure there will be a noticeable difference!

 

[pjknight]

thank you so much for the advice! Moving forward, I am going to reduce the hemp to 5%. I made a small test batch using this calculation-

22.67 gr of citric acid consumes 22.67 times 0.624 gr of NaOH, which comes to 14.15 gr of additional NaOH. You can do it, it's not that difficult

The soap went thru gel phase, and it seems very soft 24 hours later. I usually cut after the first or second day, but I can tell the soap is too soft yet. Any thoughts? I may just go to vit e (1%) and ROE, with the hemp down to 5%

Looking at the profile of hemp oil, it shows lino acids content around 80%, which is more than sunflower. Sunflower shows around 70%. When I use sunflower, I get DOS even with 10% of the total oil weight and with added citric acid - that's why I just stopped using it. And theoretically, hemp is supposed to be even more prone to fast spoilage than sunflower, judging from those numbers (yes, they are far from correct for every batch of every vendor, but that's what we got). Maybe citric acid just doesn't provide enough of an effect with those oils, and that's the reason a lot of people add ROE when using them. I would bet my money on hemp being the reason for the DOS here.

If you like hemp oil and you wish to keep using it, maybe you need to drop the hemp % a bit (like, to 5% instead of 12.5%) and add something stronger than citric acid, as you mentioned you'd like to try. Try different combinations of chelators/antioxidants and see what works best for your recipe, I'm sure there will be a noticeable difference!

 

[Ekuzo]

Hmmmm, did you change anything else besides the hemp % and the NaOH adjustment? And how is it now, did it get harder?

 

[AliOop]

I agree that the hemp oil is the most likely culprit. Did you add ROE to it immediately upon opening?

Also, be sure you aren't using an excess of ROE, which can actually cause oxidation (DOS) rather than prevent it. The amount needed is tiny, so really watch that decimal point closely when figuring out how much to add.

 

[pjknight]

Hmmmm, did you change anything else besides the hemp % and the NaOH adjustment? And how is it now, did it get harder?

I check the loaf this morning. It is still soft. I could press on it and it will leave a dent. It seems to be slowly changing color around- the edges are lighter than the flatter part of the loaf. From experience, I know its too soft to cut, and when I do cut it, I think the whole loaf is gonna go to waste possibly. I didn't change my recipe. I added 22.67 grams citric acid and an additional 14.15 grams of lye for 80 ounces of oil. I didn't use ROE.