Coronavirus

[AliOop]

I feel ignoring the science is blatant disregard for the health and well-being of others. We need to circle the wagons for the health of everyone.

I agree with all that you said about not looking back, and about being willing to change our minds when new information comes along. KUDOS FOR YOUR GREAT ATTITUDE!

And yes, there are people who don't give a flying fig about others. There was even a rash of pranksters who coughed on people purposely to frighten them (sad, but true - happened to a dear friend of mine in my hometown).

Still, we will all reduce our stress level greatly if we stop assuming the worst about others. Why not trust that most people who disagree on the mask issue are not "blatantly disregarding the health and wellbeing of others"? Rather, they believe a different set of facts that also claim to be scientifically based.

Face it, we get a lot of conflicting information, and it is tough to know who to believe. It doesn't help when major news outlets are caught in blatant lies as they try to hype things, like showing hospitals overflowing with patients, and test lines going around the block - pictures that are then revealed as coming from other countries, not the US. Then the other side of the news outlets pounce and say that the numbers are all faked. If only our news outlets (ALL of them) would fact-check and focus on finding the truth, instead of trying to score political points against each other!

Then there are the elected officials on and news anchors screaming, "STAY IN AND WEAR MASKS OR WE WILL ARREST YOU!" - several of whom are then caught outside during strict quarantine - and not even wearing masks. One of those persons was out with his entire family who had tested positive for COVID.

Two of these hypocritical public figures berated those who confronted them. The other just made sure he was quickly photographed delivering meals to the poor while wearing masks and gloves.

The hypocrisy is maddening. The worst part is that antics like these cause otherwise reasonable people to genuinely believe that things aren't that bad, and that no precautions are needed.
After all, if the leaders themselves are behaving this way...

 

[jcandleattic]

Then there are the elected officials on and news anchors screaming, "STAY IN AND WEAR MASKS OR WE WILL ARREST YOU!" -

In certain areas of my state wearing a mask in public IS mandatory by executive order of the Governor, and although you won't get arrested for not wearing one, you can/will get a fine - first offense $1000 fine, and it goes up from there each time. (and yes, they have fined newscasters for being out reporting the news in those areas without masks on)

I'm with the others who have said if you (you as in the collective "you" of the general public, not pointing any 1 person out here) don't want to wear a mask, then don't go where it's madated, or stay home. It's easy enough to avoid being in public when you don't have to be. And if you absolutely have to be out, wear a mask. If for health reasons you can't wear a mask, then you probably shouldn't be out in public anyway until this is all under control and contained. Have someone else do your errands and running around for you.

 

[beckster51]

I agree with all that you said about not looking back, and about being willing to change our minds when new information comes along. KUDOS FOR YOUR GREAT ATTITUDE!

And yes, there are people who don't give a flying fig about others. There was even a rash of pranksters who coughed on people purposely to frighten them (sad, but true - happened to a dear friend of mine in my hometown).

Still, we will all reduce our stress level greatly if we stop assuming the worst about others. Why not trust that most people who disagree on the mask issue are not "blatantly disregarding the health and wellbeing of others"? Rather, they believe a different set of facts that also claim to be scientifically based.

Face it, we get a lot of conflicting information, and it is tough to know who to believe. It doesn't help when major news outlets are caught in blatant lies as they try to hype things, like showing hospitals overflowing with patients, and test lines going around the block - pictures that are then revealed as coming from other countries, not the US. Then the other side of the news outlets pounce and say that the numbers are all faked. If only our news outlets (ALL of them) would fact-check and focus on finding the truth, instead of trying to score political points against each other!

Then there are the elected officials on and news anchors screaming, "STAY IN AND WEAR MASKS OR WE WILL ARREST YOU!" - several of whom are then caught outside during strict quarantine - and not even wearing masks. One of those persons was out with his entire family who had tested positive for COVID.

Two of these hypocritical public figures berated those who confronted them. The other just made sure he was quickly photographed delivering meals to the poor while wearing masks and gloves.

The hypocrisy is maddening. The worst part is that antics like these cause otherwise reasonable people to genuinely believe that things aren't that bad, and that no precautions are needed.
After all, if the leaders themselves are behaving this way...

I am not assuming the worst of others. I am assuming that they are ignorant of the facts. People need to be careful who they listen to about what to do. There are authorities on these matters, and they are not always on the channel or Facebook page you are on. (Speaking about the "royal you" not you in particular.) The CDC is a reliable source of information, as are other physicians who consult with the networks. People who are getting their guidance from pundits are making a potentially deadly error. Also, whether you are a fan of this President or not, he is not an authority on these issues, so don't follow his guidance. The science is very clear, so get the facts and follow them. The facts are the facts, really, there is very little conflicting science about these issues, just evolving knowledge.

 

[LilyJo]

I had to take my son to the hospital for treatment today and no I didnt wear a mask. I bought some visors a few weeks back and I managed one of those for a short period whilst we waited but it was far from pleasant.

I completely take the "wear a mask" argument but not going out is not an option for me. I am a single parent, live in the middle of nowhere and cannot get a regular shopping order delivered. I have no one else to do my errands or collect my shopping. I go out for food shopping because I have to. I don't leave the house aside for walking the dogs for anything other than food and checking my parents.

I have been so careful this whole time and I really resent being made to feel like the bad guy cos my health wont let me wear a mask. Meanwhile, the beaches are packed, there are protests every week and yet those of us who cant wear a mask are lumped in with those who wont.

These are tricky times for us all but can we not all be quite so judgemental, none of us know a persons medical, mental health or other reasons for not wearing a mask. It may not be as black and white as you think.

 

[Karen May]

I have asthma. I cant wear a mask even if I wanted to. Please don't assume that it's something we can all do if we tried - if I am forced to wear one first thing that will happen is I will vomit. Followed within a couple of minutes by a full blown asthma attack which is enough to need an ambulance.

Remember asthma attacks kill people every day.

I am not going out aside from shopping and checking on my parents but luckily I can work from home.

The politicisation, right vs left, of the virus is just maddening. It seems worse in the US and although there is criticism of the UK Govt it seems less partisan. What's the situation elsewhere in the world, are Govts working together on solutions?

Would love to hear from fellow forumites in Aus or NZ where the virus seems much more under control, what made the difference in your opinion?

I have a cousin with severe asthma who has the same issue, so I can understand your situation. As a stop gap, my cousin started wearing a face shield. Not exactly foolproof, but gives her a little peace of mind.

The politics of this is maddening, particularly here in the States. It's become a real problem that has lead to temper tantrums on both sides of the spectrum. It shouldn't be this way, but alas.

Karen, I’m so sorry that happened to you. It is the perfect example of people jumping to conclusions based on appearances.

People on both sides of the debate do that, and it is so sad. Instead of assuming others are stupid or don’t care about others for _____ (wearing a mask, not wearing a mask) why not assume that they (rightly or wrongly) sincerely believe differently than we do about the problem, as well as the solution?

I live in a very low-numbers area where most people aren’t and haven’t been wearing masks. Still, our numbers didn’t jump till they re-opened the bars and other locales where people were packed in together.

What I found so sad was to see people mocking those who did wear masks, or excoriating those who didn’t. The lack of basic human decency is disheartening.

As for the allegedly inflated numbers, my friend who works in claims said they are being strongly encouraged by govt health officials and insurance companies to report cases and deaths as COVID-related even without testing to confirm it. I don’t work in that system so I can’t personally say, but I can say that my friend is a person of integrity who would not make up something like that.


Oh, we understand, at least some of us. And some of that is well-deserved.

But please don’t forget we aren’t all the same, either. Just take a look at our news, and you can see that there is no one set of opinions or beliefs that can categorize US citizens, any more than the citizens of most other countries.

We don’t do each other favors when we decide that everyone from X country (religion, color, gender) is like _____ (fill in your media-shaped point of view about whatever).

Despite our country’s faults, so many Americans also have deeply wonderful qualities. Many have the most generous hands when it comes to those in other countries who are in need.

And for some reason, people from all over the world who love to bash us still want to emigrate here if given a chance.

Thanks Ali. I was in walmart, which is famous for having eccentric characters wandering the aisles. I just do what I do and try to avoid confrontation if I can. Where I work, I haven't seen any creative filing with a COVID diagnosis. I'm sorry to hear it's happening elsewhere.

 

[dippy]

LilyJo I think from a UK perspective you do see less people wearing masks certainly in my area. I even regularly see people on buses not wearing masks and not to mention all the nonsense on the beaches.

I think if you keep social distance and go in enclosed spaces as little as possible then you are doing your bit.

It's the idiots who come right up close and breathe in your face that annoy me - they think it won't happen to them. I am sure people with asthma are far more careful than that.

 

[AliOop]

I am not assuming the worst of others. I am assuming that they are ignorant of the facts. People need to be careful who they listen to about what to do. There are authorities on these matters, and they are not always on the channel or Facebook page you are on. (Speaking about the "royal you" not you in particular.) The CDC is a reliable source of information, as are other physicians who consult with the networks. People who are getting their guidance from pundits are making a potentially deadly error. Also, whether you are a fan of this President or not, he is not an authority on these issues, so don't follow his guidance. The science is very clear, so get the facts and follow them. The facts are the facts, really, there is very little conflicting science about these issues, just evolving knowledge.

If someone next to me sees Dr. X as credible, and I believe Dr. X is an absolute nincompoop, then the issue isn't necessarily that someone isn't being careful about their sources.

For instance, not everyone sees the CDC as a reliable source of information, esp after the big whistleblower drama about the autism-vaccine connection, and their prior announcements in years past that masks don't help. And not all scientists today agree about whether masks do more good than harm, outside of use by medical professionals during medical procedures that involve close contact, open surgical sites, etc.

I may disagree with them about those issues, but that doesn't mean that they aren't being careful. It just means they have a reason for not seeing the facts the way I see them.

 

[bookreader451]

The 3 months of self imposed isolation is really starting to wear my mother down. BCV (before covid-19) she had a strong social network, was volunteering and going to church every Sunday. Now she stays at home and has no one to interact with, except for my aunt (her sister) and uncle, who live next door. My mom spends most of her time on Facebook and I've been trying to come up with alternative ways for her to spend her time.

We video chat at least once a week and yesterday she broke down and started to cry because Facebook is her only social outlet. After a few questions I found out what kind of books she likes to read and have ordered a book for her and will keep ordering books for her monthly for the foreseeable future. The libraries are still closed in the town she lives in.

Any suggestions on ways to make isolation more bearable? I've suggested numerous hobbies but she's not interested in them.

We have had friends over, outside. Maybe your mom could have a lady's tea outside, just a couple of persons at a time. Chairs spread apart, with individual side tables, is how we have been distant together.

 

[beckster51]

I would ask which doctor you think is a nincompoop and on what you base that decision. I haven't seen any true experts on the news with whom I would argue. I think it is arrogant of any of us to think we are smarter than people who have spent their lives studying an issue.

Masks are useless for some viruses. For example, masks do not decrease transmission of the flu. It depends on how that virus is transmitted. So, I would respectfully disagree that you believe some true experts are nincompoops. Facts are facts. As they are with the vaccine controversy, which I will never touch with a 10 foot pole. You can't really filter facts to make them be something you want them to be. You can ignore them, but you cannot transmute them into something different. If people want to disregard the facts, then fine. Just admit to yourself that you are disregarding facts for some personal bias. Rationalizations are not facts.

Anyone who thinks the CDC is an unreliable source of information is uninformed. They are the best experts we've got, and I challenge anyone to actually go toe to toe with them on facts about communicable diseases. I am very well educated in these areas, and I wouldn't dare try to put my knowledge above theirs.

Sorry if you find this post distasteful, but I am just trying to educate people. Knowledge is power to make the best decisions for yourself and others. If people are not practicing best public health practices as we know them, they are not being careful with their health or the health of others.

If someone next to me sees Dr. X as credible, and I believe Dr. X is an absolute nincompoop, then the issue isn't necessarily that someone isn't being careful about their sources.

For instance, not everyone sees the CDC as a reliable source of information, esp after the big whistleblower drama about the autism-vaccine connection, and their prior announcements in years past that masks don't help. And not all scientists today agree about whether masks do more good than harm, outside of use by medical professionals during medical procedures that involve close contact, open surgical sites, etc.

I may disagree with them about those issues, but that doesn't mean that they aren't being careful. It just means they have a reason for not seeing the facts the way I see them.

 

[Rsapienza]

The rest of world is watching the USA and the debates going on around masks, staying at home, and freedom of choice. It seems to us here in NZ, having put in the hard yards as a country to eradicate Covid-19, silly that people wouldn't do all that they can to minimise the spread of the disease.
If you have surgery (in a non- covid world) would you be happy if the surgeon didn't wear a mask? He/she does so to prevent YOU from getting any germs.
If you don't want to go out with a mask where it is mandated to do so - then by all means, don't wear a mask - BUT don't go out. Don't deliberately buck the system and try and force your 'rights' on others who are doing their best to stop the spread. It seems a selfish approach to think that you are somehow special enough to not wear a mask, or to be able to go out and walk around freely in the middle of a lockdown. When we had our lockdown those who had special requirements had a helpline to call for assistance, and we were urged to check on elderly neighbours or vulnerable people to collect groceries on their behalf, or to pick up prescriptions for them. Not to get within 2 metres of them - but to help out where we could.
I understand that it is difficult operating in a crisis under the country's current leadership - who, I'm sorry to say, that the rest of the world (yes I have a large number of friends in Australia, Europe and the United Kingdom too) thinks is an absolute idiot.
If each of us do our very best to stop this virus spreading then surely the crisis will be over sooner rather than later. The USA has the worst spread, the most deaths, the most people infected in the world. Doesn't that say anything?
Sorry - I'm not usually one to write controversial posts but I find it really frustrating standing by and watching this debate. I will duck for cover now and accept that I may well be verbally assaulted.

I agree. I'm in the US, Florida specifically. They just semi mandated masks in some counties. The state governor hasn't done it state wide. I was thinking of you not too long ago. The news was talking about countries with the lowest rates and yours was one of them. There were 3 countries mentioned. They all had something else in common...a female leader! hmmmmm.... LOL

 

[bookreader451]

I said it before and will say it again. I can't believe that wearing a mask to protect yourself, and loved ones, has become a hot button political issue. What a sorry state of affairs during a world wide pandemic.

We need to be in this together not arguing about who has credibility and who doesn't.

 

[MGM]

I said it before and will say it again. I can't believe that wearing a mask to protect yourself, and loved ones, has become a hot button political issue. What a sorry state of affairs during a world wide pandemic.

We need to be in this together not arguing about who has credibility and who doesn't.

It does seem absurd, doesn't it? And yet, the masses didn't come up with this issue as being divisive on their own: the behaviour is modelled from the very top. Like so many things that Americans now say "This shouldn't be a partisan issue" and yet it somehow, in the past 4 years, now is.....

 

[bookreader451]

It does seem absurd, doesn't it? And yet, the masses didn't come up with this issue as being divisive on their own: the behaviour is modelled from the very top. Like so many things that Americans now say "This shouldn't be a partisan issue" and yet it somehow, in the past 4 years, now is.....

I know, if my great-great grandparents were from Canada and I can prove my family was there in the 1700's can I come?

 

[melinda48]

I worked as a medical records coordinator in the US before moving to Denmark 5 years ago. I've seen a few death certificates and from what I remember, there are 4 lines under cause of death. So, the covid cases might seem skewed if a person has a heart attack and dies but was also positive for covid. That could be listed on the death certificate as a cause of death even if it wasn't a direct cause (does that make sense?).
As far as hospitals getting more money for covid cases, I think this has a lot to do with the amount of time and care a covid patient needs vs a non-covid patient. I can only hope doctors and hospitals are being honest and not trying to inflate numbers.

Actually, hospitals in New York City and elsewhere have already come forward and said they listed fatalities that may or may not have been caused by Covid as Covid-19 deaths so your assumption that everyone follows the rules is, unfortunately, not valid.

On another note - what does any of this have to do with soapmaking?

 

[AliOop]

I would ask which doctor you think is a nincompoop and on what you base that decision. I haven't seen any true experts on the news with whom I would argue. I think it is arrogant of any of us to think we are smarter than people who have spent their lives studying an issue.

Masks are useless for some viruses. For example, masks do not decrease transmission of the flu. It depends on how that virus is transmitted. So, I would respectfully disagree that you believe some true experts are nincompoops. Facts are facts. As they are with the vaccine controversy, which I will never touch with a 10 foot pole. You can't really filter facts to make them be something you want them to be. You can ignore them, but you cannot transmute them into something different. If people want to disregard the facts, then fine. Just admit to yourself that you are disregarding facts for some personal bias. Rationalizations are not facts.

Anyone who thinks the CDC is an unreliable source of information is uninformed. They are the best experts we've got, and I challenge anyone to actually go toe to toe with them on facts about communicable diseases. I am very well educated in these areas, and I wouldn't dare try to put my knowledge above theirs.

Sorry if you find this post distasteful, but I am just trying to educate people. Knowledge is power to make the best decisions for yourself and others. If people are not practicing best public health practices as we know them, they are not being careful with their health or the health of others.

Please let me clarify... I don't find your post distasteful. I actually agree with most of it, and I really appreciate your cordial way of making your points.

My point was that there are very intelligent, careful, compassionate people who do not believe that the CDC is telling the truth, because they sincerely believe that agency has been caught lying in the past. The unfortunate history of hiring prior Big-Pharma CEOs doesn't help them dispel the appearance of impropriety, either. So these people aren't questioning the intelligence of CDC scientists, but rather, the organization's integrity and motives.

It is very similar to the intelligent, careful, compassionate people who despise our current president. Because of his abhorrent history and admittedly harsh ways of communicating, they simply do not trust anything he says - even if it is factually true. With their view of him filtered through that lens, whatever he says, they believe the opposite.

Similarly intelligent, compassionate people feel that exact same way about our previous president, and the one before him, and those before him.

I have younger siblings who are black, and their experience of life as black people is very different than mine as a white person. Should I say they are unintelligent because they would never call the police for help, when I would absolutely do so under the same circumstances?

My point? What seems obvious and so clearly true to us, is always filtered through our individual experiences and biases. It's why personal integrity is so important.

Is our CDC telling the truth this time? I sincerely hope so, because we don't have many other options for good information.

 

[melinda48]

I know, if my great-great grandparents were from Canada and I can prove my family was there in the 1700's can I come?

Yes, for the last four years the far left has vilified not only our President but any who disagree with them. I hope you can verify your ancestry so you are free to live where you so desire. I could choose to be an Italian citizen but would not trade where I live. My best friend was a member of Solidarity and is now an American citizen. She is the epitome of the American success Story. I will not even bother going in to details about how sad she is at the changes to our society - she is a staunch conservative because she values liberty, freedom, and individual expression more than most anyone I have ever known.

 

[bookreader451]

Actually, hospitals in New York City and elsewhere have already come forward and said they listed fatalities that may or may not have been caused by Covid as Covid-19 deaths so your assumption that everyone follows the rules is, unfortunately, not valid.

On another note - what does any of this have to do with soapmaking?

It has to do with community and mutual support during a time of crisis. It has to do with a place to go during isolation. A place to laugh about toilet paper, a place to console those who have lost someone. No, it has nothing to do with soap and everything to do with who we are as empathetic human beings.

 

[melinda48]

T

That didn't work so well for Sweden though.

Actually, they are no worse off than any other country and they did not crash their economy.

 

[AliOop]

These are tricky times for us all but can we not all be quite so judgmental, none of us know a persons medical, mental health or other reasons for not wearing a mask. It may not be as black and white as you think.

‼

It does seem absurd, doesn't it? And yet, the masses didn't come up with this issue as being divisive on their own: the behaviour is modelled from the very top. Like so many things that Americans now say "This shouldn't be a partisan issue" and yet it somehow, in the past 4 years, now is.....

Oh, it goes way further back than the last four years. The divide was happening at least twenty years ago. It deepened considerably when President Obama was elected. Many people saw him as extremely divisive, while others saw him as bringing people together. We became divided about whether he was divisive!

ETA: My perspective comes from 25 years of working on legislation at California's capitol. There used to be some cooperation across the aisle if an idea was positive. That ended about 10 years ago. Now any idea that doesn't come from the majority is shut down, simply because it came from someone of another party. Some of my dear Republican friends who work as staffers are cussed at, shoved in the hallways, and literally spat upon by some of the more radical Dems. Many of the Republican staffers have quit because their cars have been vandalized, and they are fearful for their personal safety. The less radical ones stand by and do nothing because they are afraid of being turned upon. I personally am pretty moderate and hate political labels, but it's hard to see anyone in power bullying others this way.

 

[rdc1978]

Yes, for the last four years the far left has vilified not only our President but any who disagree with them. I hope you can verify your ancestry so you are free to live where you so desire. I could choose to be an Italian citizen but would not trade where I live. My best friend was a member of Solidarity and is now an American citizen. She is the epitome of the American success Story. I will not even bother going in to details about how sad she is at the changes to our society - she is a staunch conservative because she values liberty, freedom, and individual expression more than most anyone I have ever known.

The implication that people from the other side of the aisle do not value liberty, freedom and individual expression just as much as a conservative is odd to me.

Many staunch conservatives do not support particular freedoms or individual expressions. If you'd like me to delve further, I can. I don't want to vilify someone who's political views I don't agree with, but we can talk about it if you're open to it.

Oh, it goes way further back than the last four years. The divide was happening at least twenty years ago. It deepened considerably when President Obama was elected. Many people saw him as extremely divisive, while others saw him as bringing people together. We became divided about whether he was divisive!

ETA: My perspective comes from 25 years of working on legislation at California's capitol. There used to be some cooperation across the aisle if an idea was positive. That ended about 10 years ago. Now any idea that doesn't come from the majority is shut down, simply because it came from someone of another party. Some of my dear Republican friends who work as staffers are cussed at, shoved in the hallways, and literally spat upon by some of the more radical Dems. Many of the Republican staffers have quit because their cars have been vandalized, and they are fearful for their personal safety. The less radical ones stand by and do nothing because they are afraid of being turned upon. I personally am pretty moderate and hate political labels, but it's hard to see anyone in power bullying others this way.

Obama never went out of his way to create a divide. People who found him divisive had their own reasons and there was nothing he could do about that.

Many democrats were disappointed by his moderate stance and many republicans benefitted from the ACA, one of his biggest political wins.

To try to say that our current POTUS is as divisive as our last seems to ignore that one of them never tried to be anything but.

Whether people love the current POTUS or hate him, we can probably all agree in unity that he is nothing like our last POTUS.