KOH bar recipes and calculators

[squidstings]

I'm making a KOH bar batch.

I've read that certain fats behave differently with Na and K. Disolving clear or cloudy, is really all I've found so far. Not much luck finding any shared KOH bar experience really.

Calculators confuse me when they change the type to :"Liquid" but still keep the "hardness" predictions.

Any KOH BAR experience (intentional or accidental) or calculator tips would be appreciated.

Thank you

 

[AliOop]

KOH alone will not make a solid bar; it will be a sticky paste. If you manage to pour while at a stable emulsion that is still fluid enough to use cavity molds (good luck with that), you might get a bar shape. However, it will be very soft and will dissolve quite fast if used to wash hands, for instance.

And yes, the calculator qualities are geared towards bar soap made with NaOH, so not all of them translate well to LS, as you noted.

Also, some fats do behave differently, for lack of a better term, in LS than in bar soap. Maybe a better way to say it is that different qualities of each fat become more relevant and noticeable in LS versus bar soap, or they may be less so.

For great info about these differences, I recommend The Ultimate Guide to Liquid Soap ebook that is available to purchase at ultimatesoap.com.

 

[squidstings]

KOH alone will not make a solid bar; it will be a sticky paste. If you manage to pour while at a stable emulsion that is still fluid enough to use cavity molds (good luck with that), you might get a bar shape. However, it will be very soft and will dissolve quite fast if used to wash hands, for instance.

Mostly the goal.

I got a hard KOH recipe recipe, 50/50 Tallow (makes sense with the soap discovery story of fat dripping on {hardwood ashes{KOH}. if true) /coconut oil. from a chemistry teacher a while back. This batch, I want to use KOH for how it attaches to the water molecule. And going back to a beginning, in a way. Too much free time lol

And yes, the calculator qualities are geared towards bar soap made with NaOH, so not all of them translate well to LS, as you noted.

Valuable info. I can use a bit less of the more expensive oils in my LS Thank you.

Also, some fats do behave differently, for lack of a better term, in LS than in bar soap. Maybe a better way to say it is that different qualities of each fat become more relevant and noticeable in LS versus bar soap, or they may be less so.

Excellent nugget!!! Thank you!!!

For great info about these differences, I recommend The Ultimate Guide to Liquid Soap ebook that is available to purchase at ultimatesoap.com.

 

[AliOop]

I got a hard KOH recipe recipe, 50/50 Tallow (makes sense with the soap discovery story of fat dripping on {hardwood ashes{KOH}. if true) /coconut oil. from a chemistry teacher a while back. This batch, I want to use KOH for how it attaches to the water molecule. And going back to a beginning, in a way. Too much free time lol

Am I understanding you correctly, that you intend to use KOH made from wood ash to make bar soap? If so, then hopefully you are aware that there is significantly more to the process and the recipe than simply combining the KOH with the oils. If not, articles like this one can be of some help.

 

[Ekuzo]

I think OP mentioned that story just for the sake of the example, not that they are going to actually use ash as lye. There are some interesting YouTube videos of such experiments as well, that can give some visual representation of what to expect in those cases.

You actually can make a hard bar using KOH - if you are making shaving soap for example, and you use stearic acid or high % of the so called soy wax (both provide enough stearic content to contribute to the hardness). The finished soap is a little on the soft side, but it's usually a desired effect - less elbow grease needed for lathering up. Some soapers add some NaOH to add to the hardness, if that's what they want.

Other than that, I don't know if people make 100% KOH bar soap for bathing with (if that's what you're going for). There are some NaOH recipes with a small % of KOH added - not enough to make the bar too soft, but enough to make it more soluble in comparison to 100% NaOH bar). You can play with that ratio if you'd like. Or you can even try the tallow/coconut split you talk about with 100% KOH and see how it turns out - it seems to me you are eager to experiment. I can't say how it will turn out, it will probably be too soft, but if you like trying new stuff for the sake of experimenting, why not?

With that being said, I like how SMF lye calculator handles KOH math and has the option of doing splits with NaOH as well - so if you'd like, you can give it a go

 

[squidstings]

Am I understanding you correctly, that you intend to use KOH made from wood ash to make bar soap? If so, then hopefully you are aware that there is significantly more to the process and the recipe than simply combining the KOH with the oils. If not, articles like this one can be of some help.

I think OP mentioned that story just for the sake of the example, not that they are going to actually use ash as lye. There are some interesting YouTube videos of such experiments as well, that can give some visual representation of what to expect in those cases.

Just the example. We did a field trip in grade school where we made wood ash soap. Long time ago, but to be honest, that's a process I'd only use without the convenience of available chemicals. I think it's good knowledge to have though.

You actually can make a hard bar using KOH - if you are making shaving soap for example, and you use stearic acid or high % of the so called soy wax (both provide enough stearic content to contribute to the hardness). The finished soap is a little on the soft side, but it's usually a desired effect - less elbow grease needed for lathering up. Some soapers add some NaOH to add to the hardness, if that's what they want.

Other than that, I don't know if people make 100% KOH bar soap for bathing with (if that's what you're going for). There are some NaOH recipes with a small % of KOH added - not enough to make the bar too soft, but enough to make it more soluble in comparison to 100% NaOH bar). You can play with that ratio if you'd like. Or you can even try the tallow/coconut split you talk about with 100% KOH and see how it turns out - it seems to me you are eager to experiment. I can't say how it will turn out, it will probably be too soft, but if you like trying new stuff for the sake of experimenting, why not?

Mixing lye's is something I've only read about in the last few days (Alioop's posts actually). I've only read about suds production, which I personally find dictated far more by the dirt, than the soap, and now hardness. I am definitely intrigued. However, it might be a little outside my needs for the moment. Something I definitely want to learn. I look forward to reading both of your posts on the subject soon enough. Thank you both!

With that being said, I like how SMF lye calculator handles KOH math and has the option of doing splits with NaOH as well - so if you'd like, you can give it a go

Thank you! I will.

 

[Ekuzo]

Just the example. We did a field trip in grade school where we made wood ash soap. Long time ago, but to be honest, that's a process I'd only use without the convenience of available chemicals. I think it's good knowledge to have though.



Mixing lye's is something I've only read about in the last few days (Alioop's posts actually). I've only read about suds production, which I personally find dictated far more by the dirt, than the soap, and now hardness. I am definitely intrigued. However, it might be a little outside my needs for the moment. Something I definitely want to learn. I look forward to reading both of your posts on the subject soon enough. Thank you both!

Thank you! I will.

You're welcome! If you decide to try, don't forget to share the result. And don't hesitate to ask anything, we'll do our best to help

 

[squidstings]

Went into the mold like cold mashed potatoes.

Went from mild trace (35/40 minutes mixing no active heating0, to separated and then turned to mashed potatoes. All within about 5 minutes. I also ran into the challenge of poorly proportioned equipment. Couldn't help but incorporate air with my stick blender. Smallest batch so far. Maybe it'll float lol

There's some unknowns. Hemp oil was used to extract THC/CBD and I haven't been able to find ANY saponification info about those oils. Not tested, but aimed for a couple %points of superfat based on hemp oil's value and the approximate THC/CBD of the plant. Had to guess that the viscosity of THC/CBD woud give them higher sap values. So 1% superfat in the SMF calc.

Strangely, first batch the hemp oil didn't determine the colour. Not green.

So, not the 50/50 tallow/coconut oil I was given as someone's "go to".

Oils: 125.8F (at time of start)
Tallow (grass F/F) 382.1g
Fractionated coconut oil 174.3g
Castor oil 21g
Avocado oil 48.4g
Hemp oil 34.6g
Sunflower oil 34.9g

Water/lye: 169.5F
205.17g/157.01
24.5g Colloidal gold/silver mix (50/50) discounted from mixture until clear then added immediately before mix with oils.

At the beginning of med trace:
10g Frankincense EO
10g Myrhh EO
4.4g Vitamin E

 

[squidstings]

Cut like my other batches. Lots of air bubbles though.

 

[ScentimentallyYours]

Went into the mold like cold mashed potatoes.

Went from mild trace (35/40 minutes mixing no active heating0, to separated and then turned to mashed potatoes. All within about 5 minutes. I also ran into the challenge of poorly proportioned equipment. Couldn't help but incorporate air with my stick blender. Smallest batch so far. Maybe it'll float lol

There's some unknowns. Hemp oil was used to extract THC/CBD and I haven't been able to find ANY saponification info about those oils. Not tested, but aimed for a couple %points of superfat based on hemp oil's value and the approximate THC/CBD of the plant. Had to guess that the viscosity of THC/CBD woud give them higher sap values. So 1% superfat in the SMF calc.

Strangely, first batch the hemp oil didn't determine the colour. Not green.

So, not the 50/50 tallow/coconut oil I was given as someone's "go to".

Oils: 125.8F (at time of start)
Tallow (grass F/F) 382.1g
Fractionated coconut oil 174.3g
Castor oil 21g
Avocado oil 48.4g
Hemp oil 34.6g
Sunflower oil 34.9g

Water/lye: 169.5F
205.17g/157.01
24.5g Colloidal gold/silver mix (50/50) discounted from mixture until clear then added immediately before mix with oils.

At the beginning of med trace:
10g Frankincense EO
10g Myrhh EO
4.4g Vitamin E

Did you make this batch with KOH @squidstings?

I’m likely the solitary soaper who was already about to experiment using KOH (instead of wood ash) to create bar soap using the Franklin Crown Soap recipe of tallow and bayberry wax. I made it previously with sodium hydroxide and got instant soap on a stick due to the bayberry properties. But my thought is that the hard oil Tallow and the brittle oil Bayberry are what made it possible for the Franklin soap to be cut into bars. You can read about my original experiment here.
The first Franklin soap I tried to make as CP seized, so it had to be finished as boiled soap. I mistakenly took a thread about brine soap sideways. https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/brine-soap-who-created-this-soap.84829/

Later I added a thread with more CP experimentation and modification on the Franklin recipe. https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/crown-soap-ben-franklin’s-family-recipe.87241/

You have motivated me to finally experiment with the Franklin Crown soap original tallow/bayberry wax recipe using KOH with CP.

Have fun in the rabbit holes linked above!

 

[squidstings]

Did you make this batch with KOH @squidstings?

D'oh! My bad. Yes 90%KOH

Ashed and drippings are just, unpracticed knowledge, as long as I can get most of my supplies at the grocery store Be a good time filler on a camping trip though! Not quite set up for it in the burbs.

I’m likely the solitary soaper who was already about to experiment using KOH (instead of wood ash) to create bar soap using the Franklin Crown Soap recipe of tallow and bayberry wax. I made it previously with sodium hydroxide and got instant soap on a stick due to the bayberry properties. But my thought is that the hard oil Tallow and the brittle oil Bayberry are what made it possible for the Franklin soap to be cut into bars. You can read about my original experiment here.
The first Franklin soap I tried to make as CP seized, so it had to be finished as boiled soap. I mistakenly took a thread about brine soap sideways. https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/brine-soap-who-created-this-soap.84829/

I was warned But I'm not afraid of failure. Something like 95% of out greatest advancements have come from, unintended, results. Not a failure or mistake if you can still find a way forward.

I expected some ribbon or swirl. It was a bit separated when it went all mashed potatoes. only had a small 1" spatula to finish the mix. Dunno if a bit more water would improve the mold-ability, but it definitely needs to be a solid mold.

Calling it "new years" soap. Should be ready Jan 1. Totally unintended lol

Later I added a thread with more CP experimentation and modification on the Franklin recipe. https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/crown-soap-ben-franklin’s-family-recipe.87241/

You have motivated me to finally experiment with the Franklin Crown soap original tallow/bayberry wax recipe using KOH with CP.

Thank you for sharing that. I hope my motivation brings you something beneficial.
My next goal is a pure (dissolved in) glycerine/KOH liquid body wash. I might even intend a scent with that one. It's usually months between batches for me, but I might be doing that one within weeks. My biggest concern is my colloids and getting them into the paste.

Have fun in the rabbit holes linked above!

Sounds like something I need to be in the mood for lol But perhaps something I should go through. Thank you!

 

[squidstings]

In case anyone is curious in the future. Here's the results from the KOH bar I made as reviewed and shared by a few SMF members.

It's always a success if you can find the right place to use it