The effects of different process (cp, hp, cpop) on long cure (6-12+) OO and other plant based soap

[Morning Glory]

Good morning! I'm hoping some kind people could share their knowledge and experience about a topic I am confused on.

For those of you who make long cure (6-12+ months) OO soap and other plant oil/butter soap, do you use hp, cp, or cpop? Something else? If you've done more than one process are they identical at the same age other than appearance? If they behave differently can you describe how? My main concern is gentleness and drying as I have eczema and also sometimes get hives. I wont be addig any colors or fragrances. I've scoured the internet looking for answers to this question and I can't find it. Everything I've found is in reference to shorter cure soaps and says they make the same quality of soap. I did find some people saying that gelled cp is ready two weeks ahead of non gelled cp so I'm assuming the same must apply to hp??? But they also said the non gelled cp 'caught up' to the gelled cp around month 4. OO and other high oleic oils behave differently from other oils and need that long cure time so I'm not sure how much of this applies.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

 

[lsg]

Most soap requires at least a 4 week cure time, whether it gels or not. IMO, the longer the cure, the gentler the soap. Olive oil can take months to cure before it is at its best.

 

[Ekuzo]

From what I know, the difference at the cure rate of different methods (CP, gelled CP, HP) is minimal to virtually nonexistent and is generally ignored. I'll use an example:

Let's say you make HP and the soap can be unmolded and cut in 12 hours. If you make the same recipe but CP (with decreased liquid) and you let it gel, you may be able to unmold and cut in 24 hours. If you don't gel the soap, it could take 48 hours for unmolding and cutting.

It's only a theoretical example to give you an idea, nothing more.

Now, the difference between the moment the ungelled and the HP soap start their cure is only 36 hours (48-12), but we know they both need cure and benefit from it the same (given the recipe is the same as well). This means when one soap has been cured for 4 months, the other has been cured for 4 months +/- 36 hours, which is very, very little difference in the long run. So it's safe to say that both batches are at more or less the same stage in their cure.

I need to mention that HP is usually made with more water, meaning more liquid to evaporate (which means it will get to the point it stops losing water content later than CP - and therefore it needs theoretically longer cure, contrary to popular belief). BUT keep in mind that curing doesn't only mean losing water - it means also structural changes inside the bar. So you can say that at one point, after a significant water loss, both bars will be at the same, or at least similar cure stage. To be safe ‐ a lot of soap recipes are said to be okay for use after 4‐8 weeks - and that's just the bare minimum, they get even better as time goes by. No matter the method, those (at least) 4 weeks are a must.

Now, castile soap is different. It needs at least 6 months to "start getting good", and at least a year to start being at "its arguably best", with some soapers reporting their castile is at its best at least 2 years after being cut. Of course, YMMV ‐ it's always good to experiment with what you like and see how it goes.

TL;DR: No matter the method you use (HP, CP gelled or CP ungelled), soap still needs more or less the same cure. And when it comes to OO, 6 months are 6 months.

With that being said, you can check out the recipe in this thread:

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/zanys-no-slime-castile.72620/

It has sea salt, baking soda and 0% SF. OP claims it makes for a gentle slimeless castile bar that is great for sensitive skin and even babies. And what you may find even more interesting ‐ that at 6 week cure it feels as good as a regular castile at 1 year. I haven't made it and I can't confirm from experience, but a lot of members of the forum are really fond of this recipe ‐ who knows, maybe that's what you are looking for. I just thought my post wouldn't be complete if I don't include it. And sorry for the long message, HTH

 

[Kcryss]

@Ekuzo thank you for posting!! I'm so happy to see someone posting about what cure really means! I still see YouTube and other sources giving out false information about cure times and what cure actually means.

 

[Morning Glory]

From what I know, the difference at the cure rate of different methods (CP, gelled CP, HP) is minimal to virtually nonexistent and is generally ignored. I'll use an example:

Let's say you make HP and the soap can be unmolded and cut in 12 hours. If you make the same recipe but CP (with decreased liquid) and you let it gel, you may be able to unmold and cut in 24 hours. If you don't gel the soap, it could take 48 hours for unmolding and cutting.

It's only a theoretical example to give you an idea, nothing more.

Now, the difference between the moment the ungelled and the HP soap start their cure is only 36 hours (48-12), but we know they both need cure and benefit from it the same (given the recipe is the same as well). This means when one soap has been cured for 4 months, the other has been cured for 4 months +/- 36 hours, which is very, very little difference in the long run. So it's safe to say that both batches are at more or less the same stage in their cure.

I need to mention that HP is usually made with more water, meaning more liquid to evaporate (which means it will get to the point it stops losing water content later than CP - and therefore it needs theoretically longer cure, contrary to popular belief). BUT keep in mind that curing doesn't only mean losing water - it means also structural changes inside the bar. So you can say that at one point, after a significant water loss, both bars will be at the same, or at least similar cure stage. To be safe ‐ a lot of soap recipes are said to be okay for use after 4‐8 weeks - and that's just the bare minimum, they get even better as time goes by. No matter the method, those (at least) 4 weeks are a must.

Now, castile soap is different. It needs at least 6 months to "start getting good", and at least a year to start being at "its arguably best", with some soapers reporting their castile is at its best at least 2 years after being cut. Of course, YMMV ‐ it's always good to experiment with what you like and see how it goes.

TL;DR: No matter the method you use (HP, CP gelled or CP ungelled), soap still needs more or less the same cure. And when it comes to OO, 6 months are 6 months.

With that being said, you can check out the recipe in this thread:

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/zanys-no-slime-castile.72620/

It has sea salt, baking soda and 0% SF. OP claims it makes for a gentle slimeless castile bar that is great for sensitive skin and even babies. And what you may find even more interesting ‐ that at 6 week cure it feels as good as a regular castile at 1 year. I haven't made it and I can't confirm from experience, but a lot of members of the forum are really fond of this recipe ‐ who knows, maybe that's what you are looking for. I just thought my post wouldn't be complete if I don't include it. And sorry for the long message, HTH

Thank you for your thorough response! I think I'll make zanys castile tomorrow. I want to test a variety of plant based soaps to see what my skin likes best and that one looks promising.

 

[Ekuzo]

@Ekuzo thank you for posting!! I'm so happy to see someone posting about what cure really means! I still see YouTube and other sources giving out false information about cure times and what cure actually means.

My pleasure! It's actually nothing new - stuff I learned from the forum combined with a little bit of my experience and put in my own words for convenience. But I'm glad you find it useful!

Yes, YouTube is full of misleading info and important things often remain hidden by the content creator, that's why I stopped watching videos early on. Not to discredit all youtubers though, a handful of them provide really useful stuff. It's usually the more fancy ones that confuse the viewers lol

Thank you for your thorough response! I think I'll make zanys castile tomorrow. I want to test a variety of plant based soaps to see what my skin likes best and that one looks promising.

You're welcome! I'm not into castile, but if I decide to give it another chance, I'll definitely give ZNSC a go. People swear it's just too good and nothing like regular OO soap. Keep us updated how it turns out

 

[Morning Glory]

I made a batch of Zany's castile but with HO sunflower. I could believe how hard it was after two days in the mold. When I shaved the edges they broke into bits. So interesting how much difference a little salt and baking soda can make. I'm going to make another batch but with just salt and see if it does the same thing.

 

[Ekuzo]

I made a batch of Zany's castile but with HO sunflower. I could believe how hard it was after two days in the mold. When I shaved the edges they broke into bits. So interesting how much difference a little salt and baking soda can make. I'm going to make another batch but with just salt and see if it does the same thing.

Nice, got me curious now

 

[Misschief]

I'm one of the converts to Zany's soap; it has become one of my staples. Instead of using her recipe for the faux seawater, however, I use ocean water from the Pacific Ocean (gathered when we vacation on Vancouver Island).

 

[Gaisy59]

@Misschief do you just scoop up some seawater and use it or so you process it somehow?

 

[Ekuzo]

@Misschief do you just scoop up some seawater and use it or so you process it somehow?

I've heard people boil it for some time to kill unwanted organisms in it

 

[justsomeguy]

I made a batch of Zany's castile but with HO sunflower. I could believe how hard it was after two days in the mold. When I shaved the edges they broke into bits. So interesting how much difference a little salt and baking soda can make. I'm going to make another batch but with just salt and see if it does the same thing.

Did your bars come out shockingly white too?

 

[Morning Glory]

Did your bars come out shockingly white too?

I used HO Sunflower oil and it's white already. I didn't notice any difference in color. I hope to get around to trying one with olive oil. I'll update you all when I do that.

 

[Misschief]

@Misschief do you just scoop up some seawater and use it or so you process it somehow?

I boil it first, to sterilize it. That's all.

 

[Morning Glory]

I made another HO Sunflower batch of Zany's soap but left out the baking soda. After one day in the mold it was hard but didn't chip when I shaved the edges. Interesting.

 

[Ekuzo]

I made another HO Sunflower batch of Zany's soap but left out the baking soda. After one day in the mold it was hard but didn't chip when I shaved the edges. Interesting.

It seems the soda itself adds plenty of hardness, that's a nice trick to know

 

[Morning Glory]

Okay, so three days after making the salt only soap I tried shaving the edges again and the shavings chipped. I don't think it chipped quite as much as the version that had baking soda which I shaved at two days after making it.

I should also note that the salt only lye water looked normal but the salt and baking soda lye water was very cloudy. So to anyone who tries Zany's soap recipe the cloudiness is normal.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

The baking soda in the faux seawater mimics the bicarbonate in natural seawater, but the concentration in the faux seawater is much higher. The precipitates are most likely sodium carbonate, which acts to provide point-of-use water softening.