Experience of anorexic dog? Anyone?

[lenarenee]

I'm sorry Sonya. Will your vet make a house call for this so he can be at peace in a familiar place?

That's an option that needs to be investigated thoroughly because different areas in the US have different regulations about which drugs can be used out of clinic for euthanasia, the 'home use' drugs here in California are not the same that are used in the clinics. My neighbor had a horrific time with her dog at home because she was not informed of the difference and what happens if something goes wrong.

Don't know how it is in the UK.

 

[Susie]

Where I used to live, the vet had a mobile clinic, so the euthanasia drugs could be administered anywhere within, IIRC, 50 ft of that mobile clinic. That was one of the main reasons he created that clinic on wheels.

 

[LilyJo]

Its different in the UK, some vets will and some wont - it kind of depends on the vet and your relationship with him/her.

Sonya, am so sorry to hear your news especially as he seemed to have perked up a little - as someone else said, dont make that decision right now but you will know when the time is right.

We had a beautiful house rabbit who we all adored and who adored a few years back and as he got towards 10 he started to be ill sporadically. We got him through every illness but there came a time when we all just knew that he didn't have any fight left in him and it was time - it broke my heart but I am so grateful we tried for as long as we did and so proud we made the right decision for him at the right time.

Its the hardest thing any of us do and no one can ease your pain right now; stay strong and take each moment as it comes. Enjoy every kiss, snuggle, woof, play and let him know how very much you love him.

Sobbing whilst I write this so I think I need to take my own advice and go snuggle my dogs!

 

[dixiedragon]

In my area , some vets are willing to do it in your car in their parking lot. That might be worth asking about.

I'm not a follower of organized religion particularly, but I think that the existence of dogs and the deep bond between us and them is proof there is a Divine Being of some kind who loves us. Helping them to find peace at the end is our duty and our privilege.

 

[Sonya-m]

How will I know? He's eating a little bit has been sick today. I don't want to leave him so long he's suffering but equally I don't want to go ahead and do it now if there's a slim chance he could pull round.

He's back tomorrow for bloods and weigh in. If his bloods are worse and he's lost more weight do I make the decision? I know there's only me can make the choice but I'm scared I'll question my decision forever

 

[Rusti]

How will I know? He's eating a little bit has been sick today. I don't want to leave him so long he's suffering but equally I don't want to go ahead and do it now if there's a slim chance he could pull round.

He's back tomorrow for bloods and weigh in. If his bloods are worse and he's lost more weight do I make the decision? I know there's only me can make the choice but I'm scared I'll question my decision forever

If they were having trouble, I used to tell folks to keep a calendar. Mark each good day with a color, mark each bad day with a different color, red maybe. When the bad days begin to outnumber the good, or take over the calendar completely, you will know.

Some folks are better at intuiting it and trusting their instincts and what their animals are telling them. Others just need something to visualize to help them be sure because it *is* a rough decision, and you *do* sometimes second guess yourself, and if your second-guessing reflex is bad, having the calendar to look at and go say to yourself 'yeah, it was time' might be helpful.

I still have brief moments where I wonder if I didn't fight hard enough for my 14 year old GSD. But then I remember the morning of that she was off leash on the way to the car and didn't bother to go pick a fight with a neighbor dog, which is something she had always taken great glee in doing if she could. I knew then. So I remember that moment when the guessing happens.

 

[dixiedragon]

I wish I had magic words to give you. I think that it is very normal for us to feel some small "what if"? We can only do our best with the information and resources we have.

Ask your vet and/or the vet techs, "If this was your dog, what would you do?"

 

[Susie]

I wish I had magic words to give you. I think that it is very normal for us to feel some small "what if"? We can only do our best with the information and resources we have.

Ask your vet and/or the vet techs, "If this was your dog, what would you do?"

^^^This! Vets and vet techs have a much more objective view of the situation. They will probably be unwilling to actually give you an answer, but watch their faces, if you see them flinch, frown, or look away, then you know they would do the kind thing if it was their pet.

 

[Guspuppy]

Oh Sonya my heart is breaking for you. But if he's playing, if he's eating, if he's acting happy, then it's not time yet. If he's suffering more than he's happy, you'll know it in your heart. Do like Rusti said and keep track of the good and bad days. It's such a hard thing to do, and sometimes it helps to ask the vet what they would do. Sometimes we need that 'permission' to do the hard thing even if we know it is the right thing to do. And even then we can be left with doubts. I know a lady whose dog had a slow-growing bone cancer for years before she had to finally put her down for it. That lady spent tens of thousands of dollars treating the dog, and nursed it through every surgery and sickness. She did everything it was possible for her to do, even selling her house to pay for the vet, but in the end she had to let the dog go. And even then she still felt like there was more she could have done, that maybe she did it 'too soon'. There was NOTHING more she could have done, but she still feels guilty and sad about it and won't get another dog. I think the only thing we can do is enjoy whatever time we have with our dogs and try to be brave for them when it's over. I know you are horribly worried about Buster right now but try not to show it to him. Try to be happy and encouraging for him. I hope he gets his day at the beach with ice cream and enjoys every moment of it. Any happy memory you can have after all that has gone before is going to be priceless to you.

 

[LilyJo]

If its a good vet (and I think you said he was at a referral centre) then they will know and will help you to make the decision when you need to. I remember worrying so much about when would be the right time but one day you just look at them and you know its time.

If you ask them "what would you do" dont read anything into a failure to answer - our vet (who I trust implicitly) told me once that they are trained to not answer the question as it can throw up a whole load of legal issues but the better you know the vet or nurse the more likely they are to find a way to tell you.

Marking off the good and bad days or even good and bad half days is such a good idea, its so easy to get stuck in feeling of despair but if you can see that the good and the bad are balanced or there are more good than bad, it can really help to see a little light.

How was the beach, did he love it? Did you enjoy it too?

 

[Sonya-m]

 

[dixiedragon]

Great pics!

 

[Sonya-m]

 

[dibbles]

Wonderful pictures, Sonya. I'm glad you and Buster enjoyed your day at the beach.

I know people have told you that you will know when it's time. You have some doubts that you will, but I really think that, in your heart, you will know. You are in my thoughts.

 

[MySoapyHeart]

Lovely pictures of you and your dog.

Sending you my best wishes, and hope you get some rest inbetween the things that are going on.

 

[lenarenee]

How will you know? I don't think anyone can tell you that. (For myself and my cat, I promised her that when she couldn't enjoy life, or lived in pain, fear that I would end it.) There's also the question of how much a person can take.

*I really don't understand why they haven't sent you home with sub q fluids! They aren't the answer for every case, but in the US, it is one of the very first things vets RX for kidney diagnosis.

They are NOT difficult to administer once someone walks you through it can you get confident in the process. I warmed the fluids in a sink of hot water and my cat would purr through the process.

As the BUN level goes up, the appetite goes down and digestive issues go up. Fluids flush the toxins from the blood, lowering the BUN levels (it won't fix the cause).

Again, I know that sub q fluids weren't legal in the UK a few years ago, and if they are now...then it's still a very new thing that probably hasn't caught on fully. (I did note that the vets at your clinic are all older doctors. I found the best kidney vets I found were younger...simply because med school was fresher, and their experience level had them seek consults with other vets.

But if you have the strength to fight a little longer, I'd start demanding more from these vets. (Don't I sound like a tough outspoken witch? Not at all, I'm shy and quiet mostly. But I almost euthanized my cat at diagnosis due to my fear of medical things, and the overwhelming process of learning how to live with her illness. I had good people help me through; and four more good years with her.) My goal is to help you handle as much as you're capable, and to not let you give up until you feel its needed. And I will always support what you need to do!

This is taken from http://www.felinecrf.org/subcutaneous_fluids.htm and is a direct quote:

"Not only that, but dehydration feels horrible. Human CKD patients have described dehydration and the accompanying high levels of toxins in the blood as feeling similar to a bad hangover. It can make you feel so horrible that you stop eating and drinking, and according to Evidence-based step-wise approach to managing chronic kidney disease in dogs and cats (2013) Polzin DJ Journal of Veterinary Emergency Critical Care (San Antonio) 23(2) pp205-15, it may even "precipitate a uremic crisis" and "predispose to AKI [acute kidney injury].""

Myself, not knowing all the details of Buster's condition....I'd want to see how the next 2 - 4 weeks go while using fluids at home.

 

[Dahila]

For my late dog , I knew in my heart that she is not going to last, my daughter made the decision and she was at home at this time, but could not stay in the same room (vet come to my home) Two months ago her 16 years old dog got sick gravely sick and they offer her the operation......... The dog could not go outside anymore, he was in pain, almost blind, had not control his function. She called and asked me, I said do not put him through unnecessary suffering, it is time. I made the decision for her. It was tough, I loved the dog Max . When he could not come when I came, I knew that he is on his last days........ it is difficult, so difficult, eh Sonya you will have to get another one sometime, that the best option for people like us, It will be no replacing cause you can not replace the dog, ever

 

[Sonya-m]

How will you know? I don't think anyone can tell you that. (For myself and my cat, I promised her that when she couldn't enjoy life, or lived in pain, fear that I would end it.) There's also the question of how much a person can take.

*I really don't understand why they haven't sent you home with sub q fluids! They aren't the answer for every case, but in the US, it is one of the very first things vets RX for kidney diagnosis.

They are NOT difficult to administer once someone walks you through it can you get confident in the process. I warmed the fluids in a sink of hot water and my cat would purr through the process.

As the BUN level goes up, the appetite goes down and digestive issues go up. Fluids flush the toxins from the blood, lowering the BUN levels (it won't fix the cause).

Again, I know that sub q fluids weren't legal in the UK a few years ago, and if they are now...then it's still a very new thing that probably hasn't caught on fully. (I did note that the vets at your clinic are all older doctors. I found the best kidney vets I found were younger...simply because med school was fresher, and their experience level had them seek consults with other vets.

But if you have the strength to fight a little longer, I'd start demanding more from these vets. (Don't I sound like a tough outspoken witch? Not at all, I'm shy and quiet mostly. But I almost euthanized my cat at diagnosis due to my fear of medical things, and the overwhelming process of learning how to live with her illness. I had good people help me through; and four more good years with her.) My goal is to help you handle as much as you're capable, and to not let you give up until you feel its needed. And I will always support what you need to do!

This is taken from http://www.felinecrf.org/subcutaneous_fluids.htm and is a direct quote:

"Not only that, but dehydration feels horrible. Human CKD patients have described dehydration and the accompanying high levels of toxins in the blood as feeling similar to a bad hangover. It can make you feel so horrible that you stop eating and drinking, and according to Evidence-based step-wise approach to managing chronic kidney disease in dogs and cats (2013) Polzin DJ Journal of Veterinary Emergency Critical Care (San Antonio) 23(2) pp205-15, it may even "precipitate a uremic crisis" and "predispose to AKI [acute kidney injury].""

Myself, not knowing all the details of Buster's condition....I'd want to see how the next 2 - 4 weeks go while using fluids at home.

I asked our vet today about the sub q fluids and he said he's on board for cats but feels that as dogs need a fair bit more fluid due to size it would just be a prolonging exercise.

The main issue is how quickly buster deteriorated from last Friday when he left the hospital and his BUN was 13 to Tuesday when it had shot up to 50. Plus the urine sample shows he's not able to concentrate his urine, the specific gravity was very low and that was on a day that he wasn't really drinking so any urine he produced should have been more concentrated.

I'm taking him for another blood test today to see what has happened over the last two days and will take things from there.

He was a bit sick yesterday morning but a lot brighter in the afternoon. It's very up and down so I'm going to start marking on the calendar how he is.

 

[navigator9]

Oh Sonya, what wonderful pictures. I think our pets teach us a lot about what kind of human beings we are. Abigail Van Buren, who wrote the Dear Abby column, had a quote that I love..."The best index of a person's character is, A. how he treats people who can't do him any good and B.how he treats people who can't fight back." I think that applies perfectly to animals, and your compassion for Buster says a lot about you. You are lucky to have found each other. And I'm sure that Buster knows in his heart that you will do the best thing for him when the time comes. And he will love you for it. Until that time comes, enjoy every minute you have with him.

 

[Sonya-m]

Thank you for all the lovely words

He's been for bloods today and his BUN has come down from 50 to 45 but that's still way higher than its ever been. His creatinine is off the chart at over 600 (the lowest it's been is 124 and the previous highest 223). I asked the vet what he would do if Buster was his dog and he was totally honest and said he would consider euthanasia but that he wasn't saying that should be today but probably within a few weeks.

He's outside playing at the moment and has just eaten, is also drinking ok again at the moment.

I'm so conflicted because part of me feels whilst he's eating (albeit only small amounts - he hasn't lost anymore weight since Tuesday), drinking, playing and willing to go for walks that it's not the right time but the other side of me knows that when he's no longer doing these things it's because he's really suffering and I don't want that.

The vet is going to do a day of fluid therapy as an outpatient tomorrow then take bloods to see how effective it is. I guess I will see what tomorrow brings but I know I can't keep taking him in for that - once a month maybe but if it were more is that just too much to keep putting him through?