100 % Natural Or Not

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Can you call cp soap natural if you use fo and artificial colorants

  • yes

    Votes: 4 8.0%
  • no

    Votes: 40 80.0%
  • yes but

    Votes: 5 10.0%
  • no but

    Votes: 1 2.0%

  • Total voters
    50
My understanding of EU labeling is you don't list lye in your ingredients as it is no longer present.... so they are getting a product with no lye. It is the same here in Canada. Health Canada states that you list everything except chemicals that were used to create the product and have been used up in the chemical reaction. I'm paraphrasing...
 
My understanding of EU labeling is you don't list lye in your ingredients as it is no longer present.... so they are getting a product with no lye. It is the same here in Canada. Health Canada states that you list everything except chemicals that were used to create the product and have been used up in the chemical reaction. I'm paraphrasing...

And it doesn't matter anyhow, as lye is allowed within organic standards. :)
 
Indeed, in many cases it is not in the interests of the company to do so.

But this is also why I wouldn't use terms like natural or organic and if anyone ever asks my why they aren't natural or organic, I will explain it to them. When it comes to these terms, Illitteratus Emptor is my assumption. Do I want to cash in on their ignorance......................? Personally, no.
 
So the bottom line is : TALK to your customer! "I get asked this question about natural ALL the time! Tell me what that means to YOU?" {with a big smile.}

USDA Organic, Certified Organic, and Oregon Tilth are some of the biggies in the US. They don't all cover the same products, and their definitions vary. They also leave a lot of territory open by what they don't cover.

Instances from other categories besides soap that *I* deal with just to give you an idea of how crazy this can be:
HONEY
To acquire a USDA Organic label, I have to prove that ALL the forage in range of my hives is managed according to USDA standards. Since bees fly in a 6 mile radius, that means I have to certify 12 square miles {THOUSANDS of acres} as organic. HOWEVER -- if honey is imported to the US, and *claims* to be organic, the USDA will certify it WITHOUT testing, because they have no jurisdiction in other countries, and cannot prove or disprove whether it meets their standards. I know of only *2* honey producers in the US who actually qualify for USDA, one in Hawaii, and one on the Olympic Peninsula of WA. Over 2 million pounds of New Zealand "Manuka" honey are sold around the world every year. But only about 1.2 million are actually produced. Hmmm. RAW Honey. People usually mean "Pasteurized" when they ask about this, but don't realize it. Honey is NOT required to be pasteurized as it is anaerobic, and does not support microbial growth. Most people would not eat truly raw honey. That is honey as it comes out of the hive, period. Wax bits, leaves, bee parts, honey etc. "Filtered" means pushed through a micro fine filter, removing some or all of the pollens. "Strained" is what I do -- dripped through mesh similar to hosiery size that removes wax, leaves, bee parts, etc. But it WILL "sugar up", which is natural, not spoilage. If your honey doesn't sugar, it either has been super filtered and pasteurized, and/or had HFCS added. {Illegal in the US unless clearly labeled so, supposedly.}

SOY WAX
The USDA, does NOT, nor does anyone else, certify WAX as organic. If you see that, it's been mislabeled. There is no such animal. Vegetable OILS can be organic . . . Only about 2% of the soy oil produced in the US is Organic, and/or non-GMO. All of it goes into food. Even if organic oil is used to make wax (highly doubtful) it cannot be labeled that way . . . but is. Lack of enforcement, etc. Hexanes are used to make oil into wax, and they are fairly potent chemicals, so even if the OIL was organic, it would be hard to call the wax organic.

Organic does not just imply no INSECTICIDE use, it implies no HERBICIDE use. And guess what? Monsanto's Round Up CAN be used in organic applications. It stays in the soil for over 2 years. It kills bees and ladybugs and other good critters. And it's just one of many in use.

The point is, the terms mean little, and are often unregulated. Define them for yourself so you can articulate them to your customer. Most people mean well, but are subject to the same marketing we all are.

Years after Jerry Seinfeld's truly awful "The Bee Movie", I still get people asking me quite sincerely if I smoke the bees or not since "it can give them lung cancer". No, bees can't get lung cancer. Yes, I smoke them since it confuses their sense of smell and calms them (by covering alarm pheromones.) Since I live in south TX where Africanized Honey Bees {so called Killer Bees, which they are NOT} are common, smoke is a necessity, is standard practice, and has been for about 200 years at least. But people ask.

Go forth and educate! :thumbup:
~HoneyLady~
 
Indeed, in many cases it is not in the interests of the company to do so.

But this is also why I wouldn't use terms like natural or organic and if anyone ever asks my why they aren't natural or organic, I will explain it to them. When it comes to these terms, Illitteratus Emptor is my assumption. Do I want to cash in on their ignorance......................? Personally, no.

If you fulfill the requirements for organic labeling there is no reason at all to avoid it, because you aren't cashing in on ignorance, you've done the due diligence to earn the label.

Natural, on the other hand, has no legal standards or definition, and is a marketing term only.
 
Organic does not just imply no INSECTICIDE use, it implies no HERBICIDE use. And guess what? Monsanto's Round Up CAN be used in organic applications. It stays in the soil for over 2 years. It kills bees and ladybugs and other good critters. And it's just one of many in use.

http://extension.agron.iastate.edu/organicag/standards.html

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Many farmers can transition certain sections of land (such as CRP) immediately into certified organic status, if no synthetic chemicals (including Round-Up® and fertilizers) have been applied for the previous three years."

"
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]CERTIFICATION-REQUIRED PRACTICES FOR CROPS
To sell a product as "organic" the crop must have been raised on land to which no synthetic chemical (any fertilizers, herbicides, insecticides or fungicides) inputs were applied for three years prior to its harvest. In addition, no GMO crops are allowed in organic production (e.g. Roundup-Ready® soybeans and Bt-corn®)."

Can you source something for me showing that Roundup is allowed??
[/FONT]
 
Actually CanaDawn Hypoallergenic is a medical claim...
I hate the term Hypoallergenic as much as I hate the term Natural. There just is not a thing on this earth that is truly hypoallergenic. Someone will be allergic no matter what. Because a small group is tested and x amount do not react it becomes hypoallergenic. I leaned many moons ago, having a lot of severe allergies, not to take stock in haypoallergenic claims
 
If you fulfill the requirements for organic labeling there is no reason at all to avoid it, because you aren't cashing in on ignorance, you've done the due diligence to earn the label.......


If people are buying organic thinking it means something other than what it actually means, then I am benefiting from their ignorance. Within my rights, of course.

Just because the lye is legally allowed to be synthetic, doesn't mean that customers would be happy with it if they actually researched
 
I hate the term Hypoallergenic as much as I hate the term Natural. There just is not a thing on this earth that is truly hypoallergenic. Someone will be allergic no matter what. Because a small group is tested and x amount do not react it becomes hypoallergenic. I leaned many moons ago, having a lot of severe allergies, not to take stock in haypoallergenic claims

hypoallergenic = hypo means "low" not 'none' so the claim isn't that no one anywhere would be allergic, just that the product has a low relative risk of causing allergic reactions. People with a lot of severe allergies have a high risk of reacting to a low allergenic product, but that doesn't negate the word. However, I don't know that it has a medical or legal definition for the purpose of labeling.
 
If people are buying organic thinking it means something other than what it actually means, then I am benefiting from their ignorance. Within my rights, of course.

Just because the lye is legally allowed to be synthetic, doesn't mean that customers would be happy with it if they actually researched

That path of logic leads to impossible conversation which doesn't change the regulations or the compliance requirements which exist for the label "organic". Don't use it (although it sounds unlikely that you would or could), but don't make it into some cramped version of what it is, in regulations. I personally think organic regulations are among the most open, common language ones around.

Ignorance is not my responsibility. Using the term "Benefiting from it" as though that's somehow shady or underhanded overlooks that in order to use the term, the conditions must be met, whether or not the customer gets it.

People on the whole are underinformed, and full of opinions based on air, so I guess I'm not all that worked up if a few people buy properly organic labeled products without understanding precisely whether or not the synthetic lye is permissible. I'm far more troubled by vendors using the term "organic" when they have NOT met the requirements that are clearly laid out for them. That is misleading, illegal, and done solely to benefit the vendor, thus to me that is unethical, not the proper use of the label and subsequent sale to a certain percentage ignoramus buyers.
 
If you infer a shady tone to the term "benefiting from it" that is entirely for you as it was not implied. If people are buying a product because of the certification then the seller is benefiting from it, regardless of the awareness of the customer as to what the certification actually means. In some cases you are benefiting from a customers informed choice, some times from their ignorance. That is just the way that it is.

I actually get turned off by the terms "organic" and "natural" when I come to buy things, mainly because of these issues with what is and isn't allowed within that scope. Coupled with the fact, as you point out, that some people use it regardless of if they are actually accredited or not, just lowers the value of the added premium on such products for me as a consumer.
 
As an educated consumer, you would know that any certification is worth verifying.

But of course, you are entitled as a consumer to have your own opinions and decisions, but not your own facts. :) There IS a legislated meaning to "certified organic" but not to "natural", and the facts around the certification ARE available and verifiable. Choosing not to verify or choosing not to choose is up to the consumer, ignorant or not. :)
 
I fail to see where I am trying to have my own facts there. If you'd like to clarify I'd appreciate that. But I feel that we are not going to see eye to eye on this, such is the way with opinions and folks with different strokes, so I understand if you don't want to do so.
 
I fail to see where I am trying to have my own facts there. If you'd like to clarify I'd appreciate that. But I feel that we are not going to see eye to eye on this, such is the way with opinions and folks with different strokes, so I understand if you don't want to do so.

I did. Organic is legislated, natural is not. One has clear requirements, the other is used to mean anything at all.

You said: " My point has always been about what customers think." That could be....but thinking something that isn't a fact doesn't make it a fact, even if it is thunk very hard, and even if someone makes decisions using that non-fact and states it firmly. Hence "You don't get your own facts" - You are still talking marketing, I think, which is about perceptions at the consumer level. That's where the divide between "organic" and natural, but I have stated it now so many times, so many ways that I'm all done trying to make a point you don't wish to have made.

There is also the struggle with the English pronoun "you" used as a generality although I assumed my reference to consumer would have meant some clarity there, as you (TEG) would be the vendor of soap to the consumers we have been discussing, no? Perhaps I could have clarified via different grammar; I should have done better there.
 
Cana, the quote you listed is from the Iowa State Extension Service -- part of, but not the same as USDA. Overseen by them, but states have their own Ag Depts. that can accept or reject USDA mandates. My info came from personal discussions with some folks at USDA in DC. Round Up is an "organo-phosphate" and as such, falls under the "who is reading the reg and interpreting it" caveat. California is a whole 'nuther planet.

There has been discussion off and on for some time re Round Up being removed from approved lists. But, Monsanto is a BIG contributor of funds. And the USDA is as perennially underfunded as any other agency. USDA told me that they (and the EPA) accept company funded safety studies until there are enough complaints, and/or the USDA gets around to running their own safety tests. That's why Monsanto says Round Up is "non-toxic" to bees -- only half the bees died in their tests, not all of them.

I can tell you from experience, having a hive near a field of RU Ready soybeans, that they don't spot spray -- they drive rigs up and down the rows spraying every square inch, at least 2x per growing season. That's the point of the RU Ready GMOs. They can withstand the repeated applications of RU. And if they spray during bloom, it will take down a strong hive within 3 days. And RU is an herbicide -- NOT a pesticide like Malathion, or Sevin.

This sort of illogic goes both ways. I remember as a young teenager hearing about hair dye causing cancer. Oh, the uproar. It turned out you would have to *drink* 2-4 bottles a day to replicate the lab results in humans. I'd rather have coffee. It takes the ingestion of 1 castor bean to kill a child, 2-4 to kill an adult, and about 80-90 to kill a duck. :?: Ricin, distilled from castor beans is incredibly toxic. But 5% Castor Oil in your soap makes lovely lather.

I am not arguing, Cana. I'm just pointing out how much room there is for wiggle in unregulated terms. And, the TERM organic is not regulated in the US. The USDA SEAL and certification of organic IS. The "Certified Organic" label is. The Oregon Tilth Seal is regulated. The word is not. So I guess even church music can be "organic" but without the label. {insert drum riff} :roll:

The word itself isn't *yet* regulated. Then again, I heard today on the news that a junior high school student was SUSPENDED this week for her "inappropriate language". A fellow student next to her sneezed --- and she responded with, "Bless you." The teacher replied, "We will have none of that 'God talk' in the class room." The student pointed out the First Amendment protects her right to religious practice and "free speech", so she was suspended. I guess those really dangerous words like Bless You will be regulated soon. :evil:

{humor font!} Maybe we can all just wash our mouths out with soap, instead. Soap made with properly certified, labeled, and recognized as generally food safe organic oils, of course; without any lye left in it. [insert eye roll here.] {humor font!} :think:

I think soap, like wax is not certifiable because of all the transmogrification of ingredients from start to end product. But some people do like to know what goes into their stuff. Some don't. Make your customer happy, and be clear.

~HoneyLady~ with the bubbly mouth.
 
If you fulfill the requirements for organic labeling there is no reason at all to avoid it, because you aren't cashing in on ignorance, you've done the due diligence to earn the label.

Natural, on the other hand, has no legal standards or definition, and is a marketing term only.
l

CanaDawn you are great. Love your replies. I did not think when I posted this thread. There would be so many opinions and dislikes for the word natural. But thank God we live in a country with freedom of speech. All of us put our souls into making soap. Trying and buying ingredients and stuff to make a fantastic bar of soap. Soaps that we make are made with love, honesty. Just think how we feel. If that perfect batch we spent so much time, energy and money on does not come out like we like. If I
Compare the list of ingredients of Dove Soap or any soap sold in our local stores. My soap will be natural. As the old saying goes to each is his own
 
I can tell you from experience, having a hive near a field of RU Ready soybeans, that they don't spot spray -- they drive rigs up and down the rows spraying every square inch, at least 2x per growing season. That's the point of the RU Ready GMOs. They can withstand the repeated applications of RU. And if they spray during bloom, it will take down a strong hive within 3 days. And RU is an herbicide -- NOT a pesticide like Malathion, or Sevin.

I know how they spray. I understand about RU and GMO's and bees and the like. I'm a biologist. I live in farm country, and have experience with how it's done. OTOH, I have also got experience with growers who do NOT spray chemicals (BT maybe, but not chemicals)
...
I am not arguing, Cana. I'm just pointing out how much room there is for wiggle in unregulated terms. And, the TERM organic is not regulated in the US. The USDA SEAL and certification of organic IS. The "Certified Organic" label is. The Oregon Tilth Seal is regulated. The word is not. So I guess even church music can be "organic" but without the label. {insert drum riff} :roll:
...

I guess I have been a bit liberal in what I have said, because I DO mean the certification label and the seals, etc. I know that people say organic and don't mean it or don't understand it but those seals and certifications DO have legal meaning and specific guidelines and regulations and such.

I think soap, like wax is not certifiable because of all the transmogrification of ingredients from start to end product. But some people do like to know what goes into their stuff. Some don't. Make your customer happy, and be clear.

I thought we had established that soap made with lye and organic oils WAS certifiable because nothing makes the oils not-organic, and the lye is excepted. (*I* feel certifiable by now....:crazy: )

Sorry for the blue reply, but I'm exhausted by a busy day and can't fancy quote this time.... :)
 
l

CanaDawn you are great. Love your replies. I did not think when I posted this thread. There would be so many opinions and dislikes for the word natural. But thank God we live in a country with freedom of speech. All of us put our souls into making soap. Trying and buying ingredients and stuff to make a fantastic bar of soap. Soaps that we make are made with love, honesty. Just think how we feel. If that perfect batch we spent so much time, energy and money on does not come out like we like. If I
Compare the list of ingredients of Dove Soap or any soap sold in our local stores. My soap will be natural. As the old saying goes to each is his own

Thanks. I know soapers are dedicated and in large majority mean well and intend to make a good product. I wasn't discussing or debating that, but we were discussing the use of the term "natural" and what it meant (not much....it's very nebulous!) and mean no disrespect to the work and energy and time we all put into our creations, whether or not we choose to use organic products, seek certification, buy fancy oils, use what the grocery store stocks, sell, or make soap to enjoy ourselves :)
 
See? We do agree! :mrgreen:

If you live in farm country, you understand my head-banging frustration with the short sightedness of some folks. I happen to live in an area settled predominantly by Czech and German immigrants. They are lovely, hard working, frugal, upright, TIDY people. And the tidiness means they want no "weeds" in their cattle pastures. Of course the "weeds" are wildflowers, and natural bee forage . . . And then the call and ask why there are no bees in their garden pollinating the cucumbers and tomatoes. {sigh}.

There are LOTS of alternatives to wholesale spraying, but tend to be more labor intensive -- cultivation, companion planting, cover crops, etc. Those were much more common when spraying fertilizers and insecticides where EXPENSIVE. Now they are the cheaper option. Since I personally remove by hand all the huge purple "bull thistles" from my 22 acres every spring (a pile as big as my tractor shed) I understand the allure of EASY. I just also realize there's a balance to strive for. (I'm thinking napalm for the thistles next year. -- Joke!) Personally, I am more concerned about GMOs than "organic", since there is so much maneuvering.

There are lots of alternatives in soap making, too. Some people refuse to use palm oil in principal, others seek responsibly sourced palm oil. I use lard, but avoid GMO soy oil. And I think most consumers (including ourselves in the most general sense) have enough knowledge to be dangerous, LOL.

Which is why I advocate dialogue. Tell me what you mean, Mrs. Customer, by "natural"? "No, my soaps are not vegetarian, Mr. Buyer. Some contain lard; all of them contain honey and beeswax." "No, Johnny's Mom, I can't guarantee that my GM and honey soap will cure eczema, clear acne, soften your skin, or do anything besides help remove dirt from your body. But you might try it, and see if using a product that is minimally processed, has ingredients you can identify and pronounce, and is made with much love and care by me is something you prefer, or not."

There are always going to be people who want the word "organic" on everything they use. There will always be people who won't buy your soap because they can buy 10 for $3 at the Dollar Stop.

And much depends on your market. Where I am, using lard in soap is a familiar, frugal, sensible thing to do. If I were selling in Austin, Boulder, Berkeley, etc., I'd probably specialize in organic oils, no palm, lots of hemp, no beeswax, no honey, and fair trade shea. You pays your money, you takes your choice! You can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time. But you can't please all the people all the time.

Thanks, Cana, for helping all of us clarify our own thinking, and pointing out that our customers may have very different ideas of what they think they want -- and how they define that. It does us all good to be able to articulate clearly our benefits to our customers. With or without the help of our {insert your choice of adjective here} regulators.

You done good!
~HoneyLady~
 

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