Once again, DeeAnna, your logic and good analysis of the variables makes absolute sense to me, and fits with what I would have said, could I put things together so succinctly.
100 % Natural Or Not
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Once again, DeeAnna, your logic and good analysis of the variables makes absolute sense to me, and fits with what I would have said, could I put things together so succinctly.
Dorymae
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If you use the actual definition of natural and you call your unscented and uncolored soap natural you are lying. When was the last time you saw a coconut oil tree? A olive oil tree? Olive oil and coconut oil are not natural according to the true definition. Coconut oil does not occur in nature - a person must press it and clean it before it is what you use.
So in my opinion if one would poo poo someone for any claim of natural then they better not use it themselves. (Remember people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.)
I've really thought of natural in the same regard to "Tarns fat free" or "whole wheat" , in most cases they are just buzz words for label appeal.
The thing that bugs me more so is that people assume all natural is automatically better. What would be a better, a castile soap scented with 5% clove oil with poison oak on top, or a castile soap scented with 5%fragrance oil and glitter on top? The former would be 'all natural' the latter 'full of chemicals'
The thing that bugs me more so is that people assume all natural is automatically better. What would be a better, a castile soap scented with 5% clove oil with poison oak on top, or a castile soap scented with 5%fragrance oil and glitter on top? The former would be 'all natural' the latter 'full of chemicals'
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I'd like to see what that would be. Is it defined somewhere legally?
Mirriam-Webster says "
1nat·u·ral
adjective \ˈna-chə-rəl, ˈnach-rəl\ : existing in nature and not made or caused by people : coming from nature
: not having any extra substances or chemicals added : not containing anything artificial
: usual or expected"
so we're using the first two definitions in this discussion so far, but I think most of us are aware that a) they are not entirely synonymous and b) the word has additional nuance when used in marketing and in some people's thinking (as pointed out re the natural poison oak vs the artificial FO)
Is there a more precise legal definition for the purpose of labeling?
According to that way of thinking essential oils aren't natural either. Yes there is some production to obtain it yes, same as butter, you have to make it from heavy cream. It does not occur naturally and yet it is a natural food.
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girlishcharm2004
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If you want to get very technical, even detergents are "natural" because the chemist had to use something from nature and alter it to get the final product. E.g. Sodium laurel sulfate is derived from coconuts -- totally natural! I understand that even essential oils used in the wrong amounts can be harmful and therefore "natural" does not inherently mean safe. However, that being said, I market to people who have various skin conditions and my safely-used essential oils and colorants made from juices and clays have been received very well. I'm proud of the quality soap I make and boast about it in my labeling. Saying "all natural" maybe over used and meaningless, but I don't really know how else to describe the quality. Those lab created fragrances and dyes are harmful to some people. Honestly, I'd consider my kitchen a lab because I create soap and bread, but like I said, I'm not sure how else to describe the quality.
"non-synthetic" is probably technically more correct. And things derived from natural things aren't natural in many cases...I always question labels that tell me something is "derived from coconut" because I know SLS is just that....it is NOT natural, nor is it a particularly pleasant synthetic, although the initial ingredient may have been. Butter requires only a physical effect to be created from milkfat, not a chemical alteration to a different substance - it is still milkfat and milk protien which basically remain unchanged molecularly and simply changed in distribution.
I'm guessing you are marketing to a group that would welcome the phrase "all-natural" without much question.
If you understand how "natural" doesn't equate to many of the words people then go on to use (hypoallergenic, safe, organic, nonsynthetic, healthy) which may or may not be accurate, even if "natural" is. Further, it is impossible to prove a negative....so stating that something is not harmful can only be done imprecisely at best, by showing there is an acceptable risk (ie almost no one will react negatively so the vast majority of the time the substance will do nothing bad) vs showing harm (which is an event, not a non-event, and can therefore be demonstrated or surveyed) A "safely used" essential oil will not be safe for someone with an allergy to it, no matter how pure and natural and non-synthetic it may be.
Complicated? It can be, for some. But this is the very point..."natural" doesn't mean what it means in marketing, and many people have assigned other or additional meanings beyond the actual definition. Going with the colloquial meaning is easier in many situations...until you want to be precise.
I'm guessing you are marketing to a group that would welcome the phrase "all-natural" without much question.
If you understand how "natural" doesn't equate to many of the words people then go on to use (hypoallergenic, safe, organic, nonsynthetic, healthy) which may or may not be accurate, even if "natural" is. Further, it is impossible to prove a negative....so stating that something is not harmful can only be done imprecisely at best, by showing there is an acceptable risk (ie almost no one will react negatively so the vast majority of the time the substance will do nothing bad) vs showing harm (which is an event, not a non-event, and can therefore be demonstrated or surveyed) A "safely used" essential oil will not be safe for someone with an allergy to it, no matter how pure and natural and non-synthetic it may be.
Complicated? It can be, for some. But this is the very point..."natural" doesn't mean what it means in marketing, and many people have assigned other or additional meanings beyond the actual definition. Going with the colloquial meaning is easier in many situations...until you want to be precise.
Actually CanaDawn Hypoallergenic is a medical claim...
*shrug* doesn't change my point, people think about the properties of hypoallergenicity when they think "natural". I wasn't referring to labeling laws, but of how people embellish the meaning of the word "natural" to mean things it doesn't mean at all.
Dorymae
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Exactly my point!
Yes the dictionary definition is to which I was referring.
No there is no legal definition for labeling which is the problem.
Coconut oil DOES occur in nature. It is within the coconut or you would not be able to collect it. Olive oil occurs in nature, within the olive.
If the oil has nothing added but is collected in one place, it is still natural by the definition you agreed we were using...it is coming from nature, and contains nothing artificial.
You've likely noticed the use of words like "refined" on butters or oils to signify they are NOT as they occur in nature.
We can focus this down to such a degree as to be meaningless in the opposite direction from the vague general use of it under discussion. The point remains that the word "natural" when used in marketing has all but lost meaning, and in place of the original meaning, vendors and buyers have substituted many other meanings and interpretations. Since it isn't a regulated word like "organic" is, both the buyer and the seller need to reach a happy consensus about what they feel "natural" means, and all is well. If neither party is unhappy with their assumptions or discussions and the outcome in terms of definition, no laws have been breached, and no one need feel misled.
As always, asking questions before purchasing is a good idea. Caveat emptor and all that.
Doymae - essential oils are natural, butter is natural, coconut oil is natural, do you see where I am going with this? If you were to make a soap that was coloured with clay or botanicals and scented with essential oils it is a natural product just not 100% natural, more like 95% which to the mind of the consumer is Natural....
Dorymae
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You can call anything natural.....if you want to call minimally processed things natural you can. I will not argue with you on what you can call natural - the word natural in labeling means nothing, or anything that the manufacturer wants it to.
As far as the consumer goes, I have found people each have their own definition. Some care about color and fragrance some don't - even when they want "natural". I hand them my soap when they say they want "natural soap" and say this is my ingredients list..., and let them read the label. I don't claim natural because it means nothing at all to me.
As far as the consumer goes, I have found people each have their own definition. Some care about color and fragrance some don't - even when they want "natural". I hand them my soap when they say they want "natural soap" and say this is my ingredients list..., and let them read the label. I don't claim natural because it means nothing at all to me.
Exactly.
I don't call my products natural, but what I was pointing out that if you are using EO's, Clay for colour then the only unnatural part of your soap is Lye. If someone wanted to call that soap natural I don't have a problem with that. It's when they get into micas and FO's that I have a problem with someone calling their soap natural....
Just saying my opinion. As I said my labels do not say natural. But I am sure not going to stand in judgement of someone who is calling their soap natural if they are not using FO's or Micas.....
Just saying my opinion. As I said my labels do not say natural. But I am sure not going to stand in judgement of someone who is calling their soap natural if they are not using FO's or Micas.....
Dorymae
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Lye is not unnatural, by your own definition it occurs in nature...and without mans help. What if someone called a soap natural with micas? You would really think that is unnatural?
See this is where the lines get blurred. Too blurred for me to pass judgement on anyone. At best I think people are misinformed about "natural" that is why I don't use the word, but I do understand the use of it in marketing. I guess it only bothers me when someone uses it KNOWING that it is deceiving to their customers.
Well, there's this: "mica is a natural product, that is mined but then, the individual mica (which looks like a platelet) is coated with FD&C colorants, or pigments, or a combination of both to achieve the colorant."
Actually mica these days as in what we use in our products is no longer natural but rather created in the full chemically. The lye we use is not natural, it too is created from the whole cloth of chemicals in a lab.
I don't see the lines being blurred, there are very black & white, however like I said I don't stand in judgement and in fact if someone is making the product entirely from natural substances except the lye I have even less problem with that.
Something we should remember is it is marketing that will determine how successful we are. There is a soapmaker here in town that calls herself the Natural Soap Lady, I have no problem with that at all...
I don't see the lines being blurred, there are very black & white, however like I said I don't stand in judgement and in fact if someone is making the product entirely from natural substances except the lye I have even less problem with that.
Something we should remember is it is marketing that will determine how successful we are. There is a soapmaker here in town that calls herself the Natural Soap Lady, I have no problem with that at all...
Lindy makes a good point here - even if something IS found in nature, has the person used the natural version? Lye can be found naturally - but is YOUR product natural? If you buy your lye, then it is almost certainly not naturally occuring lye. Olive oil is naturally occuring. EVOO is just made from pressing olives. But pomace oil is chemical extracted, making it rather unnatural olive oil indeed.
I think what we can see from this is that using "natural" can put us in to the realms of Snake Oil sales people, which might work on the punters and get us a quick buck, but is that where you want to be? I will never use this term in marketing, and will always think that those who do are either uneducated and therefore potentially dangerous soap sellers or they are willfully misleading people, in which case they are charletans and beneath contempt.
I think what we can see from this is that using "natural" can put us in to the realms of Snake Oil sales people, which might work on the punters and get us a quick buck, but is that where you want to be? I will never use this term in marketing, and will always think that those who do are either uneducated and therefore potentially dangerous soap sellers or they are willfully misleading people, in which case they are charletans and beneath contempt.
scotsman
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There's also micas, which many of us use to color our soaps. While micas do occur in nature, and would color our creations quite nicely, the ones we buy from our suppliers are lab-created. The reason for this is purity. Lab-created micas are more pure than those occurring in nature. Some "natural" micas contain potentially harmful trace elements. Whether or not they are actually harmful at the minimal levels used for coloring is probably a matter for debate but I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject to make a cogent argument on either side of the issue. I dig some of the lab created colors and use them freely. I also use what many call "natural" colorants like turmeric, alkanet root, etc. As far as using the word "natural" or any variant thereof, I don't...either on my packaging or when discussing my soap with customers. I list all my ingredients in an easily understandable format(in keeping with standard naming format) and am completely honest and forthcoming about my product and any ingredients used in its manufacture. I'm proud of what I make and have nothing to hide so I don't feel like its necessary for me to stand behind labels like "natural" or "organic". I like to let my product speak for itself, and if necessary, am always happy and eager to answer questions or even explain some of the science behind making soap. I must admit that I get a bit giddy when somebody shows an interest in the scientific side of things. I've always been a bit of a chemistry nerd and enjoy talking about it with people who's eyes don't immediately glass over when you mention the word molecule, lol! I'm the same way with cooking. I've studied at length the molecular processes at work behind many of my favorite recipes and cooking techniques. Yeah I know, I'm a big dork, lol!
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