100 % Natural Or Not

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Here is an extract from this site (http://blog.sejalvora.com/2010/10/25/the-truth-about-refined-cooking-oil/):

Refining:
Oil refining is a process where crude oils; i.e. natural oils from vegetables are refined to remove any substances that may contribute to off flavor, off odor, undesirable color, or for keeping standardization, and standardization is required because if 100 million tons are being sold, there would be chaos at the supermarket if every bottle would be different in color and clarity as it is naturally supposed to be.

Step 1: “Washing” of oil using water, salts and acids in order to remove waxes, phosphates and other impurities.

Step 2: Oil undergoes a neutralization process. Alkali which is soap mixed with oil and heated to 180F. A separator then removes the soap from the oil.

Step 3: The oil is subjected to “physical” refinement to remove odor compounds by vacuum steam distillation process.

Step 4: Next the oil is subjected to cooling. By doing this, some fats will crystallize and are removed using filtration.

Step 5: The oil is then bleached. This process stabilized the oil. Bleaching involves using clay to remove color and impurities from the oil. Oil is bleached by heating it to 130F, and mixing with clay. The mixture is held for several minutes and then the hot oil is filtered from the clay and cooled.

Step 6: Hydrogenation process is completed by pumping pressurized hydrogen into an agitated tank filled with oil. This must be done in the presence of a catalyst metal, such as nickel. Hydrogenation is done at 204C and pressure of 60psig.

 

[wetshavingproducts]

Honestly, I feel as though it's just a marketing term with no real meaning.

But since most people draw the line at man made chemicals, that seems to be a logical cutoff. And even though lye is a processed chemical these days, I don't think the general public thinks of it as a chemical when used in soap.

 

[Kyra]

I do share your point of view, PuddinAndPeanuts! Thanks for writing this. In my part of the world "natural soap" is generally referred to handmade soap made with lye and oils. This is how the general public searches for it, this is what they ask for, this is what they want to buy. They know it is not 100% natural and they do not care for the dictionary definition of the word "natural". If I were to take that word out of my marketing, I would be lumped together with the "detergent making industry" and I would pretty much go out of business. Too much hype around this word, I am sure our customers are smart enough to know what they are buying by just reading the ingredients on the label, but at least where I live, this is what they call this type of soap, plain and simple.

I know this isn't a popular viewpoint here, but here goes... 'Natural' has no set definition, except that which I or my customers give it. (I sell body butter and sugar scrubs- clearly I'm nowhere near ready to sell soap yet!). I make products with fragrance oil and various (often refined) butters and oils, no colors in those products. I label my ingredients by saying: "this product contains fragrance oil and the following natural ingredients:"... This meets MY definition of natural, and more importantly, what I believe my customers have in mind when they say natural. I can certainly see where it might not meet someone else's definition of natural, but it does fit mine. Is it legal? Yup. Is it misleading? I truly don't believe so- for what *most* people have in mind when they think of what nAtural means. But- I will say this too- after reading this thread, I am going to try to find the time to do a little research on what 'refined' actually means. While 'natural' may have no legal meaning, I do want to stay true to my own definition of that word. I will also say this- for a word with no real meaning, it brings a heck of a lot of label appeal. My sales would be significantly impacted if I removed it. So if for instance I decide (after further research) that calling a refined butter natural is misleading, I will in all probability switch to a nonrefined version of that butter, or perhaps reword my label to say xx% natural... Like I said, I know mine is not a popular viewpoint, but it is another way of looking at the issue. Hope like heck I haven't offended anyone...

 

[Lindy]

The OP of this thread asked about marketing your soap as 100% natural. It seems we all agree that we wouldn't market our soap or other products as that and Kyra makes a valid point. If we were to compare ourselves to the Detergent Soaps then we are natural and that includes most M&P products because there are MP bases made without DPG. There even organic bases using organic ingredients and MP is made very much like we make HP, including the clear since we can make that too. Just saying, but it has me thinking a bit deeper and with a less prejudiced mind.

 

[FGOriold]

While this relates to food, I find that the use of the word "natural" in both food and bath and body products are comparable.

http://www.upworthy.com/how-we-are-fooling-ourselves-into-eating-all-natural-foods?c=tkp1

 

[Lindy]

According to the US Cerified Organic can be applied to soap as long as it is 95 percent certified organic with the water removed from the calculations. So people who make soaps with EO that are certified organic as well as the oils/butter then they can get certified as organic. There is a lady in Ontario that has gone through this process and is Certified Organic.

 

[Kyra]

I myself am looking into getting certified as organic for a part of my line of products, as the EU legislation allows me to, as long as a certain percentage of ingredients are proven to be organic. And I will sure put the certification on my label as soon as I get it!! Quite a few small manufacturers do and I don't see anything wrong with it.. just the costs of all the lab testing involved and the many audits that will follow loool

 

[CanaDawn]

According to the US Cerified Organic can be applied to soap as long as it is 95 percent certified organic with the water removed from the calculations. So people who make soaps with EO that are certified organic as well as the oils/butter then they can get certified as organic. There is a lady in Ontario that has gone through this process and is Certified Organic.

TEG mentioned that lye made up more than 5% of the batch, so how would that be dealt with?

 

[Lindy]

Because there is no lye left in the finished product my understanding is you're okay...

 

[CanaDawn]

Because there is no lye left in the finished product my understanding is you're okay...

That would be my thought on it too.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

But as there are also no organic oils left, as there is no lye left, then YOU must make your product in the way that ensures the organic label, rather than the ingredients that we put in if we are accepting that the ingredients aren't actually in the soap. We cannot say that there is no lye in the finished soap and then turn around and say that I made it with organic oils - it just makes no logical sense at all.

 

[CanaDawn]

But as there are also no organic oils left, as there is no lye left, then YOU must make your product in the way that ensures the organic label, rather than the ingredients that we put in if we are accepting that the ingredients aren't actually in the soap. We cannot say that there is no lye in the finished soap and then turn around and say that I made it with organic oils - it just makes no logical sense at all.

It does if we look at what is meant by organic for the purpose of labeling, and we discover that KOH and NaOH are on the list of allowable synthetics. http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...ext&node=7:3.1.1.9.32.7&idno=7#se7.3.205_1605

Regardless, you DID make it with organic oils, and thus at the very minimum it is said to be "made with organic ingredients" which isn't even necessary as soap can definitely be labelled organic under USDA regulations.

Summed up by wiki as: "Products made entirely with certified organic ingredients and methods can be labeled "100% organic," while only products with at least 95% organic ingredients may be labeled "organic." Both of these categories may also display the USDA Organic seal. A third category, containing a minimum of 70% organic ingredients, can be labeled "made with organic ingredients," but may not display the USDA Organic seal. In addition, products may also display the logo of the certification body that approved them. Products made with less than 70% organic ingredients can not be advertised as "organic," but can list individual ingredients that are organic as such in the product's ingredient statement.
In the U.S., the Organic Foods Production Act of 1990 "requires the Secretary of Agriculture to establish a National List of Allowed and Prohibited Substances which identifies synthetic substances that may be used, and the nonsynthetic substances that cannot be used, in organic production and handling operations."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_certification#cite_note-10"

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I stand corrected.

That does make for some interesting reading, though, and highlights the disparity between what many might think organic means and what it actually means. Organic peach pie made with peaches that have been peeled using lye? Yum.

 

[CanaDawn]

I stand corrected.

That does make for some interesting reading, though, and highlights the disparity between what many might think organic means and what it actually means. Organic peach pie made with peaches that have been peeled using lye? Yum.

No. It specifically prohibits use of lye for that purpose. "Sodium hydroxide—prohibited for use in lye peeling of fruits and vegetables. " ETA I see that KOH is allowed. But again, I say, so what? We put product that once used lye on our faces. That does NOT mean there is lye IN the peaches.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

But not potassium hydroxide, dear girl

 

[CanaDawn]

Please don't refer to me as "dear girl". Thanks.

I did note my error.

Yes, what is allowed might come as a surprise, however what is allowed is specifically and publicly available, so there is no need to speculate on whether or not lye in soaps means it is or it isn't organic for the purposes of labeling in the USA (and similar lists are available for all certification boards). So. If you want to debate whether or not it's organic enough _for you_, that's an entirely different conversation I don't wish to engage in. If you need to know if something can legally be labeled or described as organic, that's pretty straightforward, and won't require any speculation.

 

[Lindy]

Did you know that most pretzel recipes call for lye (NaOH)?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I won't in future. I apologise for the offense.

You did note your error, but after I had posted.

Personally, I don't know how much of it is worthwhile or not. I am not a person who buys organic items and this has never been my point. My point has always been about what customers think. If a customer was eating that organic peach pie and you said to them that it had been peeled with KOH, what do you think their reaction would be? I'm not saying that there is still lye in it (though the process for caustic peeling generally doesn't sound great) and so the "so what?" is this thread started off in a direction about the word natural and how it can be misleading and is not regulated, but a regulated word can also be misleading, as I am sure many people who do want to eat organically might well be concerned about some of the items on that list, but don't think to look for such a list as it doesn't occur to them that their peaches were peeled in KOH. Regardless of if they should check for such a list, or if there is anything wrong with peaches being peeled in lye or not. It is about selling something to the customer that is not what they actually expect it to be, regardless of whether or not it is allowable to do so.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Did you know that most pretzel recipes call for lye (NaOH)?

I do indeed. In fact, only the other day I was eating bread that The Admirable Lady had baked - with lye splashed over the top of it before baking.

As I said in the post above, it is not about me and my view of lye in food and so on, but about what customers assume and what they actually get.

 

[CanaDawn]

As I said in the post above, it is not about me and my view of lye in food and so on, but about what customers assume and what they actually get.

Caveat emptor. If someone is making purchasing decisions based on assumptions they have not researched even a little, there is nothing that can be done. The regulations are clear and public.

Vendors are responsible for labeling legally according to the clear and public requirements, but are NOT responsible for consumer assumptions (although they may wish to educate their clients - it is certainly not their responsibility to do so)