100 % Natural Or Not

[scotsman]

On a side note, I realized that I mentioned that I stay away from the word organic. For those of you that do use the term please don't think that I am denegrading it in any way. I have to problems with people who use the term on their packaging or otherwise. My decision to not use it at all is personal and mostly from my own nerdy science standpoint. I think the term is way overused and not at all in keeping with the original definition of the term, which hails from science, as in organic/inorganic...or containing carbon atoms/not containing carbon atoms. Yes, I can almost hear the collective groans, lol! I think the other science and chemistry buffs on here, if not in agreement, will at least understand where I'm coming from with this one...even if it is a bit from left field

 

[scotsman]

On a side note, I would love to see a dedicated category on this forum for people to post threads explaining the scientific side of our craft for those who are interested in learning more about it...especially since we have some serious chemistry geniuses here on this forum. Now mind you, I don't include myself in that group. I'm no science scholar...more of a weekend warrior as it were, lol! Ok, I really must try to get to bed. I drank a couple energy drinks tonight to stay awake through the monotony of late-night weekly inventory at work and they still have me so wired you'd think I was coming off a cocaine bender. If I don't get to sleep soon I'll end up making soap and irritating my family, lmao! Goodnight, er, morning everybody

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Organic is another interesting one. If organic oils are used, are the scents also organic? Is the lye? Even then, when these organic oils are saponified, are they then still organic as they have undergone a hefty change in to something else.

 

[CanaDawn]

There's also micas, which many of us use to color our soaps. While micas do occur in nature, and would color our creations quite nicely, the ones we buy from our suppliers are lab-created. The reason for this is purity. Lab-created micas are more pure than those occurring in nature. Some "natural" micas contain potentially harmful trace elements.

The reason for the dyes and pigments on lab mica is more likely colour variety and brilliance. I've seen micas in very VERY unnatural shades! Some of the dyes are probably as potentially harmful as the trace elements I doubt they are "more pure" <--there's another overused, under-defined word.

 

[CanaDawn]

Organic is another interesting one. If organic oils are used, are the scents also organic? Is the lye? Even then, when these organic oils are saponified, are they then still organic as they have undergone a hefty change in to something else.

In order to be labeled organic, there are requirements set out by the governing body (often the agriculture or food admin) that have to be met. So...if those are met, the product can be sold as organic. That one is pretty straightforward, and is regulated, unlike the term "natural".

We can, as with anything, batter it to death but it is probably counter productive.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

True! It does make me wonder why some soapers look to use organic oils for soaping, though

 

[CanaDawn]

True! It does make me wonder why some soapers look to use organic oils for soaping, though

To avoid pesticide residues, and solvent residues, I would assume. Since the level of organics has to be 95% or more, organic oils would be fairly important in being able to label organic, too.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

But as lye makes up more than 5% of a recipe, it can never happen.

I would be interested to see any information someone has on how much bad stuff gets in to the oils in the first step and then ends up in the soap as a second step, though. I hadn't thought about that side of things

 

[CanaDawn]

http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalv.../a-few-words-about-organic-soaps-and-shampoos seems fairly comprehensive on the topic

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

But by their rational, if there is no non-organic lye left in the soap at the end, there is also no organic oil left over, apart from the superfat - if the superfat is 95% or more, then call it organic!

Their info on Europe is also flawed - there is no lye in the ingredients, but then when you look at the labels, it has the saponified names of the oils (potassium tallowate, for example) which I don't think can be called organic.

I'm not here to fight about how someone can label it organic, but rather is there actually any point in using organic oils - is there a demonstrable difference in the soap itself?

 

[CanaDawn]

Well, the labeling is regulated, so fighting would be just a brawl for the sake of it...the regulations are what allows it to be labeled according to the country.

Again, people wish to avoid pesticide and solvent residue, and whether or not that has an appreciable effect or reduces any risk aren't really the point for some. Also not something I want to debate, because I think organic labeling is adequate when it meets or exceeds legislated requirements, and from there consumers can make their own minds up about what they believe is best for them.

As far as residues in oils, a search on PubMed would get you started.

 

[green soap]

.....
I'm not here to fight about how someone can label it organic, but rather is there actually any point in using organic oils - is there a demonstrable difference in the soap itself?

I use organic African shea and cocoa butter, not for fear of residues, but hoping that organically produced oils would be better in terms of environmental practices and human right abuses (child labor, etc). My other oils are not organic and I do not label my soaps as overall organic - just those two butters. If I was to use palm oil I would also buy organic (same reasoning) but I have not found a need for palm oil as far as formulating soap recipes.

 

[CanaDawn]

I use organic African shea and cocoa butter, not for fear of residues, but hoping that organically produced oils would be better in terms of environmental practices and human right abuses (child labor, etc). My other oils are not organic and I do not label my soaps as overall organic - just those two butters. If I was to use palm oil I would also buy organic (same reasoning) but I have not found a need for palm oil as far as formulating soap recipes.

I would also assume lower environmental impact, at least from chemical applications, but fair trade butters would do more to assure you there was better human rights awareness than organic does, I would think.

Personally I would want sustainably produced palm oil if I ever used it - the reason to avoid it for me is the damage to orangutan (etc) habitat.

 

[new12soap]

"Organic" does not mean pesticide free. Organic farmers use pesticides all the time. There are very strict guidelines about which ones they can and can't use, but because organic pesticides aren't as effective as traditional methods they often must use up to three times as much. Yes, the term is regulated (unlike "natural") very specifically, but like anything else it isn't a perfect system.

 

[PuddinAndPeanuts]

I know this isn't a popular viewpoint here, but here goes... 'Natural' has no set definition, except that which I or my customers give it. (I sell body butter and sugar scrubs- clearly I'm nowhere near ready to sell soap yet!). I make products with fragrance oil and various (often refined) butters and oils, no colors in those products. I label my ingredients by saying: "this product contains fragrance oil and the following natural ingredients:"... This meets MY definition of natural, and more importantly, what I believe my customers have in mind when they say natural. I can certainly see where it might not meet someone else's definition of natural, but it does fit mine. Is it legal? Yup. Is it misleading? I truly don't believe so- for what *most* people have in mind when they think of what nAtural means. But- I will say this too- after reading this thread, I am going to try to find the time to do a little research on what 'refined' actually means. While 'natural' may have no legal meaning, I do want to stay true to my own definition of that word. I will also say this- for a word with no real meaning, it brings a heck of a lot of label appeal. My sales would be significantly impacted if I removed it. So if for instance I decide (after further research) that calling a refined butter natural is misleading, I will in all probability switch to a nonrefined version of that butter, or perhaps reword my label to say xx% natural... Like I said, I know mine is not a popular viewpoint, but it is another way of looking at the issue. Hope like heck I haven't offended anyone...

 

[CanaDawn]

your point of view pretty much echoes several in the thread, so I'm not sure you need to be so concerned.

 

[Lindy]

We're all entitled to have our own viewpoint and sometimes it is hard to stand up and say I don't agree and stay respectful. Well done!

 

[PuddinAndPeanuts]

Thanks, CanaDawn and Lindy. It seemed to me like my thoughts bucked the prevailing opinion, so I was a bit nervous posting that...

 

[Lindy]

I know that happens now and then, but don't let that deter from speaking your truth

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I know this isn't a popular viewpoint here, but here goes... 'Natural' has no set definition, except that which I or my customers give it. (I sell body butter and sugar scrubs- clearly I'm nowhere near ready to sell soap yet!). I make products with fragrance oil and various (often refined) butters and oils, no colors in those products. I label my ingredients by saying: "this product contains fragrance oil and the following natural ingredients:"... This meets MY definition of natural, and more importantly, what I believe my customers have in mind when they say natural. I can certainly see where it might not meet someone else's definition of natural, but it does fit mine. Is it legal? Yup. Is it misleading? I truly don't believe so- for what *most* people have in mind when they think of what nAtural means. But- I will say this too- after reading this thread, I am going to try to find the time to do a little research on what 'refined' actually means. While 'natural' may have no legal meaning, I do want to stay true to my own definition of that word. I will also say this- for a word with no real meaning, it brings a heck of a lot of label appeal. My sales would be significantly impacted if I removed it. So if for instance I decide (after further research) that calling a refined butter natural is misleading, I will in all probability switch to a nonrefined version of that butter, or perhaps reword my label to say xx% natural... Like I said, I know mine is not a popular viewpoint, but it is another way of looking at the issue. Hope like heck I haven't offended anyone...

Not offended, but as I said earlier I think that it is misleading as you are assuming that what you and your customer thinks is the same thing. If they think it means unprocessed in any way, then the refined oils and maybe the sugar are then outside of their scope of natural - unless when you go on to list like "this product contains fragrance oil and the following natural ingredients: Refined sugar, cocoa butter, refined shea butter..............."