Wonderful pine tar soaps!

[Twiggy]

Hi, this is my first post here even though I have been browsing tne forum for some time. After reading this thread I bought some Auson Kiln burned pine tar from timbersave (lovely company in Warrington Uk). I have made a batch of pine tar soap which turned out great - if a little darker than I expected! I was looking to get the soap safety assessed and contacted a company re the pine tar as it was the only product that I couldn't find on their approved list. The response I got back was a not one I expected, they said that after speaking to their chemist I would not be able to use the pine tar. I have seen many pine tar soaps for sale inthe UK and have made sure that the one that I used is 100% Pine Tar - it even says that it is often used for cosmetics and pharmaceuticals on the product information on the website. Surely I can get a pine tar soap recipe approved by the UK regulators. Has anyone had their pine tar soap assessed/approved. If so, can you please tell me which company you used? Any help would be much appreciated.

Sue x

Hi Mancmummy Does it say clearly on label or in the MSDS that is a cosmetic grade, or is it PT used for hors hoofs as for the main purpose? I imagine, that it may be not allowed, as PT used in animal care is not clean out from adverse substances, some of them r consider as cancerogenic, like the byproducts of burning out of the sap. I wonder if the PT soap is not possible to assess at all, or just with this kind of PT?

C n you PM me and let me know who did you speak with? Which assessor in UK?

 

[AnnaO]

Thanks AnnaO, I will contact a couple more assessors as the one I contacted gave no reason "I have checked with our chemist re the Pine Tar and this will not be allowed I'm afraid." No more explanation

My recipe includes 16% pine tar which worries me a bit now but most of the recipes I looked at said between 15 and 20% was acceptable. Not sure if Pine Tar Bp would make any difference to the percentage used.

The Pine Tar that I used is this one http://www.timbersave.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=64&product_id=98

It says "Kiln Burned Pine tar is a pure, natural product produced by the old fashioned kiln burning of pine tree stumps. This type of tar is characterized by high resin content, low content of pitch and high purity. Kiln Burned Pine Tar is a high performance tar especially for medical purposes but also for veterinary use as well as for wood and wood preservation. You can find Kiln Burned Pine Tar as an ingredient in shampoos, soaps, expectorants and in ointments against allergic rash, psoriasis and eczema, among others."

Lots more research to be done me thinks....I wanted to sell some of the soap at a craft fair but will have to either hold back or scrap the idea depending on what else I can find out. Will be great if you hear back re the pine tar Bp but not pinning my hopes on it being in my budget. Thanks so much for taking the time to reply

I used 15% in my recipe, and I love it, but I agree it may not be to everyone's taste, especially the pong, and the brown lather :shock:

So the chemist says 'this is not allowed'... but neglects to say why...
i wonder what the issue is then, is it the pine tar grade/source, or the percentage of pine tar in the recipe? How disappointing for them to be so unhelpful.

I'd like to wish you the best of luck in your quest though, and please do keep us posted

 

[Mancmummy]

I will PM you in a mo Twiggy, I habe emailed them back to ask if they will clarify why it can't be used. I also emailed another assessor and the company that I bought the pine tar from to see if they can shed any light. Will update the thread when/if I get responses. The tin is in swedish but I doubt that it will specifically say cosmetic grade and the MSDS sheet certainly doesn't (I only just located it).

Anna, which type of Pine Tar did you use? I love the smell and feel of mine, a few friends have asked if they can try it but I am worried about letting them if I can't get it approved. I have read earlier on the thread that people have used pine tar that is not cosmetic grade with no ill effects, it would be such a shame to waste it if it is actually ok to use. I am thinking if I let anyone have some as a gift to make sure to tell them to stop using if they notice any adverse reaction and idt should be ok.

I am gutted that it is so complicated but I know that public safety is at the root of it all. Fingers crossed I will have more info soon.

 

[AnnaO]

Mancmummy
I used the Gold Label Thick Stockholm Tar - I've posted pics of the tin earlier in the thread. When that runs out I'll purchase the Auson stuff from Warrington because of the excellent reviews it gets on this forum.

Out of sheer curiosity I just did a search on ebay and found this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Natual-Pi...athBeauty_BathShowCons_RL&hash=item3ce115d4ba

The seller states that it is certified... so I wonder who their assessor is?
And what pine tar they used??
I think I'll message them and ask
Anna (insomniac)

 

[AnnaO]

Well I have just sent a message to the ebay pine tar soap seller asking if she would be willing to share the name of her assessor, and why... I hope I have not breached some kind of soapers' etiquette by asking, I didn't even buy any pine tar soap from her. I would have been tempted though if I didn't already have a shelf full of the stuff...

Edit: she may well not answer me, but if she does, I'll pm you Mancmummy

 

[Shalisk]

Those results are amazing. Maybe ill have to try to make one for the room mate some day ^.^ But ....not yet

 

[Mancmummy]

The eBay seller might have the answer AnnaO - hopefully she will be willing to share. I bought some of the Stockholm Tar Liquid but will probably not use it as Im not sure what it has been diluted with. Pretty sure its not creosote due to other posts on this thread :roll:

The lovely man from Timbersave in Warrington phoned me this morning and he is surprised that the assessors are not allowing it as an ingredient - I said I will let hm know if I hear any more.

Fingers crossed this stumbling block can be overcome

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

The eBay seller might have the answer AnnaO - hopefully she will be willing to share. I bought some of the Stockholm Tar Liquid but will probably not use it as Im not sure what it has been diluted with. Pretty sure its not creosote due to other posts on this thread :roll:

The lovely man from Timbersave in Warrington phoned me this morning and he is surprised that the assessors are not allowing it as an ingredient - I said I will let hm know if I hear any more.

Fingers crossed this stumbling block can be overcome

They (the supplier) might have a product sheet that the assesor can use. If the supplier is saying that it is safe, they will have something to back this up.

 

[DeeAnna]

I seem to remember a recent comment by Genny (I believe) that coal tar has been banned as a UK ingredient and that pine tar was in the process of being reviewed and possibly banned as well. That may be why assessors are not keen on approving new products that contain pine tar, but existing products might still be allowed to be sold.

Remember too that what is "safe" in one country or state may not be in another. In the US, California is notable for banning products that are perfectly legal to sell in most other US states.

I'm not any kind of expert on this; just passing on an interesting tidbit that lodged in my memory.

 

[Twiggy]

I will PM you in a mo Twiggy, I habe emailed them back to ask if they will clarify why it can't be used. I also emailed another assessor and the company that I bought the pine tar from to see if they can shed any light. Will update the thread when/if I get responses. The tin is in swedish but I doubt that it will specifically say cosmetic grade and the MSDS sheet certainly doesn't (I only just located it).

I’m looking forward to hear how the things are going with that issue in UK - fingers crossed!!

I seem to remember a recent comment by Genny (I believe) that coal tar has been banned as a UK ingredient and that pine tar was in the process of being reviewed and possibly banned as well. That may be why assessors are not keen on approving new products that contain pine tar, but existing products might still be allowed to be sold.

Seriously I don’t get it, and it makes me mad, that more and more natural treatments are out of our (small manufactures) range – like PT! But big concerns will be free to produce - @#$%^&&&&!!!!! :evil:

Today I’ve made my first PT soap – well not exactly pine tar – I got birch tar, is use the same way and has very similar properties. I’ve add some rosemary EO and lavender EO. OMG that smell… :thumbdown: I had to remove it from my curing room and all bars landed outside on a log rack! Will it go away a bit so I can keep it at home? Now I’m really concerned if I will be able to use it at all – the smell make mi sick :roll:

 

[Mancmummy]

A quick update as I have been away at a scout camp for the weekend and only just back....1500 scouts and lots of mud and rain!!

The only response that I have found waiting in my inbox so far is from the original assessor saying that his chemist is away at the minute but he has left a message asking him to let him know exactly what the problem is.

I will be back here with his response when I get it. Now for a nice brew and feet up

 

[Mancmummy]

This from Cosmeticsafetyassessment.com:

"Thank you for getting in touch. Unfortunately we are unable to assess any products which contain wood tars as they have not been classed as safe by the SCC/SCCNFP.

Sorry we couldn't help on this occasion."

Looks like Pine Tar will be for personal use only, I am worrying about safety implications now though

 

[reinbeau]

So many use pine tar soaps and have great experiences with it - I wouldn't let a government bureaucrat deter me from using it.

 

[Twiggy]

This from Cosmeticsafetyassessment.com:

"Thank you for getting in touch. Unfortunately we are unable to assess any products which contain wood tars as they have not been classed as safe by the SCC/SCCNFP.

Sorry we couldn't help on this occasion."

Looks like Pine Tar will be for personal use only, I am worrying about safety implications now though

OMG, that's so bad! :sad:

 

[Sinful7]

So many use pine tar soaps and have great experiences with it - I wouldn't let a government bureaucrat deter me from using it.

Exactly my thoughts! Think of all the other homeopathic remedies that aren't approved by government either. Sorry I don't trust big pharmacy and corporate government to decide what works. They say store bought soaps are "safe" but we all know what can be found in some of them. Use your personal experience and common sense.

 

[AnnaO]

Mancmummy
I used the Gold Label Thick Stockholm Tar - I've posted pics of the tin earlier in the thread. When that runs out I'll purchase the Auson stuff from Warrington because of the excellent reviews it gets on this forum.

Out of sheer curiosity I just did a search on ebay and found this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Natual-Pi...athBeauty_BathShowCons_RL&hash=item3ce115d4ba

The seller states that it is certified... so I wonder who their assessor is?
And what pine tar they used??
I think I'll message them and ask
Anna (insomniac)

I haven't had a reply from this seller

This from Cosmeticsafetyassessment.com:

"Thank you for getting in touch. Unfortunately we are unable to assess any products which contain wood tars as they have not been classed as safe by the SCC/SCCNFP.

Sorry we couldn't help on this occasion."

Looks like Pine Tar will be for personal use only, I am worrying about safety implications now though

That's so very disappointing.
I wonder when it was that the SCC/SCCNFP changed their classification from 'safe' to 'not classed as safe'?

 

[Mancmummy]

A response from the original assessor:

"I have asked our chemist about this again and his response was as follows:

"There's an SCCS opinion document to say that the safety of pine tar can't be established so it's definitely a no" SCCS is a European Body more properly called the Scientific Committee on Consumer Safety and you can find further details here:

http://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/consumer_safety/index_en.htm

Trust this helps,"

Not sure when or why the rules changed. I will keep mine as a personal stash to share with friends and family. It is a bit confusing that some are claiming to have had theire Pine Tar soaps UK cetified and it is openly being sold on etsy and ebay.

I think that I conclude my investigation lol, I will keep an eye on the thread in case the rules change and someone updates here. Thanks for all your helpful replies x

 

[scottief]

Made our first pine tar soap last night. Its still in the mold. Im hoping it will be hard enough tomorrow to take out and cut. How long from your experience does it take for this soap to harden up. Ive read different things from everyone.

 

[Sinful7]

Mine was good within 24 hours to unmold

 

[newbie]

I could unmold mine within 24 hours but it probably depends on your recipe. I intentionally made a hard recipe because of the effects of the PT.