When to start selling

[Donee']

If Carolyn's quote from above is what you mean by "exaggeration", she is far from out of order. We (members on the forum) try to keep in mind that when posting on the forum it isn't only the OP who is reading what we write, but also new members. Input from experienced soapers is that for CP/HP soap, one should have at least a year of soapmaking. If you choose not to follow that, that's your inexperience talking and you take your own risks. As experienced soapmakers, we would like to protect the business side of soapmaking and that includes giving due warning to new soapmakers. We encourage questions and give reasonable explanations, but we certainly can't force you to listen to us. We'll keep repeating it though for others who are reading and may not have made up their mind or considered all consequences.


Yes, but I'm not wanting to sell my mistakes. Does bad soap happen to me? Yes, but I've also enough experience to know not to sell it. New soap makers may not know it's bad and that's what experience is for.

But you are coming across as autocratic and only prepared to preach dogma without considering other options, new ideas, new trends. And if someone does have a dissenting opinion then they are labelled (i recall seeing myself being labelled a troll somewhere which I ignored), which immediately stops the more timid soapers from airing their own experiences or views.

 

[amd]

Inexperience is not an option, new idea or new trend. The only way to move past inexperience is by doing. That is what we are telling you. If you do not want to wait and gain experience, that is your choice, but please don't tell other soapmakers to follow suit.

 

[LilyJo]

Please remember that what works is SA in terms of being legal is NOT the same elsewhere. As I keep banging on about, anyone selling ANY cosmetics (CP/HP/M&P/Lotion/Bath Bombs/Scrubs...anything) has to spend at least £180 per product to get it safety assessed. You cannot just start selling.

If you want to sell M&P or CP from day one and you are happy to take that risk then thats your choice but please dont suggest that everyone can or should do the same as for some people to do so would mean breaking the law.

 

[SaltedFig]

It would be in breach of the law here too, LilyJo.

 

[Alfa_Lazcares]

But you are coming across as autocratic and only prepared to preach dogma without considering other options, new ideas, new trends. And if someone does have a dissenting opinion then they are labelled (i recall seeing myself being labelled a troll somewhere which I ignored), which immediately stops the more timid soapers from airing their own experiences or views.

But what are the new ideas you are bringing to the “when to start selling”? Cause this are all discussion that have been done in the past and probably will keep ocurring.

The reason people are so against starting to sell when you are new to soap making is because you dont have all the info you’ll need to start a business. There are a buch of things you wont know until you do this for quite a long time.

And i fail to see how “thats what samples are for” has anything to do with bad soap?

 

[shunt2011]

Samples have nothing to do with having bad soap. If it's bad it doesn't matter what it is, sample or full bar. Some people just like to spout and don't generally offer one bit of constructive/helpful information. Because they can't speak from experience on the subject. Nothing to back it up. Just trying to justify what they are doing or will be doing. Telling new people to just do it is irresponsible and bad business advice.

 

[lenarenee]

One reason many people here believe it's necessary to wait at least a year is because they've experienced some of the mysterious fickleness that happens with soap. The fragrance that didn't used to turn brown may decide to do so after a few weeks. Or cause dos. Or perhaps the supplier of the oils started using cosmetic grade instead of food grade which can cause subtle changes that affect your recipe - such as funny odors or rancidity. Maybe the colorant fades or morphs. (I've seen some crazy things happens with colorants). I've also used fragrances that many other had great luck with and stayed strong and true for months, that completely failed after curing in my recipe.

Any business needs a trusted reputation. Selling books is one thing - they don't change. Soap does and it can change at any moment. For your customers to trust your product, you need to predict it's performance as accurately as possible and that takes a lot of repetition, trial and error. Honestly, I don't think even an year is enough unless it's a year spent with the same recipe.

Here's an example of one of my most surprising soap mysteries. I made a Satsuma soap with 3 layers of orange colors - dark, medium and light. After the first day - the colors reversed - the dark turned white, the medium turned very pale, but the lightest layer turned darkest!! Then....the soap decided to gel - AFTER it had sat for 24 hrs. The center of the soap changed back to the originals colors, and the outside soap stayed the same. So now layers didn't even match. I shoved the soap to the back of the curing rack and left it. After 4 months or so - all of the colors had now "fixed" themselves to what they were supposed to be.

 

[jcandleattic]

And i fail to see how “thats what samples are for” has anything to do with bad soap?

I couldn't quite figure that one out either.

In fact I'm lost on the whole concept of selling with no experience, and not knowing 100% how your soaps will be 6, 9, and 12 months down the line... Especially with a product such as soap that only gets better with time.

 

[Hendejm]

Understanding that this is a controversial subject to many, I believe without risk there can be no reward. To take the discussion to the extreme - soap can and does change after the first year or years. It can lose scent, develop DOS, go rancid.... long after the suggested time to begin selling. So it’s always a risk. I like what someone mentioned here ( can’t find who it was) that creating a “best practices” insert when selling soap is a fantastic idea. Setting realistic expectations and guidelines is a great thing and I will begin doing that immediately.

There will ALWAYS be a risk when selling an artisanal, handmade, consumable product regardless of experience or skill level. Manage the risk - prepare for the enevitable - and decide if it’s right for you. Some will say they aren’t ready, some will decide they are ready. That’s kind of the beauty of making a handmade product - you are in control and you get to decide. That’s my opinion for how I will move forward and I am by no means suggesting that anyone follow my reasoning or beliefs.

 

[MGM]

Here's an example of one of my most surprising soap mysteries. I made a Satsuma soap with 3 layers of orange colors - dark, medium and light. After the first day - the colors reversed - the dark turned white, the medium turned very pale, but the lightest layer turned darkest!! Then....the soap decided to gel - AFTER it had sat for 24 hrs. The center of the soap changed back to the originals colors, and the outside soap stayed the same. So now layers didn't even match. I shoved the soap to the back of the curing rack and left it. After 4 months or so - all of the colors had now "fixed" themselves to what they were supposed to be.

Dat's just spooooky.
Satsuma tho! Love love love!

 

[Alfa_Lazcares]

Understanding that this is a controversial subject to many, I believe without risk there can be no reward. To take the discussion to the extreme - soap can and does change after the first year or years. It can lose scent, develop DOS, go rancid.... long after the suggested time to begin selling. So it’s always a risk. I like what someone mentioned here ( can’t find who it was) that creating a “best practices” insert when selling soap is a fantastic idea. Setting realistic expectations and guidelines is a great thing and I will begin doing that immediately.

There will ALWAYS be a risk when selling an artisanal, handmade, consumable product regardless of experience or skill level. Manage the risk - prepare for the enevitable - and decide if it’s right for you. Some will say they aren’t ready, some will decide they are ready. That’s kind of the beauty of making a handmade product - you are in control and you get to decide. That’s my opinion for how I will move forward and I am by no means suggesting that anyone follow my reasoning or beliefs.

Yes, but the issue here is that, if you dont give yourself time to even know that this things could potentially happen, then you shouldnt be selling. A batch can fail no matter how many years you have been making them, but a new soaper might not even know the soap is a fail (prople dont know what DOS is/looks like), and sell anyway. Thats where the experience comes from. I am not advocaiting you MUST wait exactly 365 days to sell, but to have at least experience making your soaps, knowing how fragrances/colors behave, how long is your soap gonna last in the shower and on the shelf, and those things you will only know with time.

Scents and colors can and will fade, yes, that is the nature of hand made soap, but you at least need to know how long your scents and colors will last.

 

[IrishLass]

But you are coming across as autocratic and only prepared to preach dogma without considering other options, new ideas, new trends. And if someone does have a dissenting opinion then they are labelled (i recall seeing myself being labelled a troll somewhere which I ignored), which immediately stops the more timid soapers from airing their own experiences or views.

Please consider that what may come across as 'autocratic' and 'dogmatic' to you (or to anyone else in this thread) is simply our collective years of soap-making experience speaking. Those of us that may have come off as sounding that way to you have been making soap for a very long time (for myself, it's coming up on 13 years now), and to us 'oldtimers', there is really not too much that is new under the sun, because each of us have accumulated years under our belt from having made all kinds of soap using all kinds of ingredients, not to mention having done all kinds of crazy and weird and creative experiments with our soap, testing it to its limits, which we still continue to do, because we are creative people and soap is our passion.

Truly, we are not trying to rain on anyone's parade here. Believe it or not, we want you to be successful in your soapy endeavors! We 'oldtimers' have actually been where you are now and can each of us recount having had the very same arguments that are being put forth here in this thread with the experienced oldtimers that came before us when we ourselves were new to the craft and were taken captive by it, and felt the mighty pull of temptation to sell it before we were aware of just how little we really knew about what we didn't know about the craft to even think about selling so soon out of the gate had we taken the time to know. Time and experience, though, have shown us that the 'oldtimers' that we once thought were overly autocratic and dogmatic when we were new, were actually right and knew a thing or two or three that we either hadn't considered, or for some of us in our haste, didn't actually want to consider if we were honest with ourselves.

For as long as this forum has been in existence, this argument comes up on average about 4 times a year, I would guesstimate (always started by a newcomer both to the forum and to the craft....not singling anyone out, just stating a statistical fact). And it's not just on this forum, either, but also over at the Dish forum and all the others I've ever been a member of....and they always tend go south rather quickly because of how passionate we all are about the success of the promulgation of handmade soap. In order to head such potential for disaster off at the pass (because we want this to be a civil forum!), we created a sticky a few years ago in the in the Announcements/Rules section under the heading 'SMF Culture and Tone' to give those new to the forum a 'heads up' as to what are considered by the main body of our membership to be the hot-button issues common to our community, and to caution that that if one decides to post about such topics, you do so at your own risk and to expect some passionate fall-out from it. I don't know if you have read the sticky, but here is the link to it: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/smf-culture-and-tone.56833/


IrishLass

 

[KiwiMoose]

Please consider that what may come across as 'autocratic' and 'dogmatic' to you (or to anyone else in this thread) is simply our collective years of soap-making experience speaking. Those of us that may have come off as sounding that way to you have been making soap for a very long time (for myself, it's coming up on 13 years now), and to us 'oldtimers', there is really not too much that is new under the sun, because each of us have accumulated years under our belt from having made all kinds of soap using all kinds of ingredients, not to mention having done all kinds of crazy and weird and creative experiments with our soap, testing it to its limits, which we still continue to do, because we are creative people and soap is our passion.

Truly, we are not trying to rain on anyone's parade here. Believe it or not, we want you to be successful in your soapy endeavors! We 'oldtimers' have actually been where you are now and can each of us recount having had the very same arguments that are being put forth here in this thread with the experienced oldtimers that came before us when we ourselves were new to the craft and were taken captive by it, and felt the mighty pull of temptation to sell it before we were aware of just how little we really knew about what we didn't know about the craft to even think about selling so soon out of the gate had we taken the time to know. Time and experience, though, have shown us that the 'oldtimers' that we once thought were overly autocratic and dogmatic when we were new, were actually right and knew a thing or two or three that we either hadn't considered, or for some of us in our haste, didn't actually want to consider if we were honest with ourselves.

For as long as this forum has been in existence, this argument comes up on average about 4 times a year, I would guesstimate (always started by a newcomer both to the forum and to the craft....not singling anyone out, just stating a statistical fact). And it's not just on this forum, either, but also over at the Dish forum and all the others I've ever been a member of....and they always tend go south rather quickly because of how passionate we all are about the success of the promulgation of handmade soap. In order to head such potential for disaster off at the pass (because we want this to be a civil forum!), we created a sticky a few years ago in the in the Announcements/Rules section under the heading 'SMF Culture and Tone' to give those new to the forum a 'heads up' as to what are considered by the main body of our membership to be the hot-button issues common to our community, and to caution that that if one decides to post about such topics, you do so at your own risk and to expect some passionate fall-out from it. I don't know if you have read the sticky, but here is the link to it: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/smf-culture-and-tone.56833/


IrishLass

*Rushes off to look up promulgation in the dictionary*
Well written Irish - in a considered and informative tone. I think markets must be quite different over in the USA and UK & EU, and even Aussie to what they are here. We don't need a licence, we don't need insurance, we don't have to register with any professional bodies, we don't have any obligation to anyone but ourselves and our own standards. For selling as a proper business things might be a bit stricter, but to go to a weekend market - anything goes. Someone might be making homemade chutney and selling it (admittedly they are required to get a food safety compliance certification to do so) - but for soap there are no 'requirements'.
I would point out that I have bought commercially made soaps that have lost their fragrance and gone cracked and stinky ( probably lard). Pretty much every public toilet used to have these in them before they brought in liquid soap. Nobody complained, or sued (we don't have a suing culture in NZ anyway). People don't expect products to last forever. Like I stated further back, it's probably a good idea to put a 'use by' or at least 'best before' date on handmade soap, and of course explain to customers the difference between handmade and commercial soaps.
I certainly intend to sell, and am practicing my skills and honing my recipes to find what works best - I am testing, and have friends test my soaps. I am taking on board feedback and making alterations ( one soap apparently 'fell apart' and I do know why that is now - obviously not when I made it because that was part of my learning). Luckily for me my first two batches that I gave to family and friends were pretty gosh-darned good so I had no complaints there. I've saved a couple of these to keep an eye on over the coming months. I have pretty much got my 'recipe' set now, with some minor tweaks here and there, and my main experimentation is with different swirl or pattern techniques and with differing FOs or EOs to see how they behave and/or if I like them. I intend to start selling soon.

EDIT to add: BTW - my standards are high. I want to have a good quality product that looks nice and performs well. I've always been a perfectionist.

 

[Dawni]

@IrishLass, I read that two times not because it didn't make sense to me after the first time but it was so well written I just had to.

And because of my double reading I started giggling about something entirely off topic haha

I've been using the terms "experienced" and "experts" and "professionals" when I refer to you guys (you know who you are harharhar) buuuuut...

Am I now allowed to call you guys "old-timers?"

 

[MGM]

There do seem to be massively different requirements in different countries...I think Canada's right in the middle, but I also constantly worry about what I might be missing. I don't sell, but I have donated products (not just soap) to silent auctions at the kids' schools and stuff, so I follow GMP and have registered products with Health Canada as required for selling.
I do find it a little funny that there is such a bright line drawn with selling....DON'T sell soap that might be have too much lye or scratchy exfoliants, lose its color or scent, might crack, crumble or develop DOS because the buying public will get turned off handmade soaps. But plenty of people are giving away soap to all and sundry, and don't seem to worry about injuring or offending friends and family

 

[shunt2011]

There do seem to be massively different requirements in different countries...I think Canada's right in the middle, but I also constantly worry about what I might be missing. I don't sell, but I have donated products (not just soap) to silent auctions at the kids' schools and stuff, so I follow GMP and have registered products with Health Canada as required for selling.
I do find it a little funny that there is such a bright line drawn with selling....DON'T sell soap that might be have too much lye or scratchy exfoliants, lose its color or scent, might crack, crumble or develop DOS because the buying public will get turned off handmade soaps. But plenty of people are giving away soap to all and sundry, and don't seem to worry about injuring or offending friends and family

That's because friend and family know you are just starting out and testing your stuff. They had no idea that eventually I would start selling. And, I only donated to women's/homeless shelters and overseas to the military. They aren't likely going to be the ones purchasing my soap to begin with. I didn't donate for auctions or other functions until I had a business and had my insurance etc in place.

 

[MGM]

That's because friend and family know you are just starting out and testing your stuff. They had no idea that eventually I would start selling. And, I only donated to women's/homeless shelters and overseas to the military. They aren't likely going to be the ones purchasing my soap to begin with. I didn't donate for auctions or other functions until I had a business and had my insurance etc in place.

Sure. It just seems that the two main gripes, bad rep for HM soap and liability, are equally at play here. If your family and friends find they just don't like your soap 6 months down the line, will they attribute it to you not knowing what the heck you were doing, or to "oh well, I guess I just don't like this kind of soap. NBD." And if you're worried about liability, I'd argue that donating to vulnerable populations might actually be worse than donating to people who frequent silent auctions for bath products, the former being in much less of a position to treat any fallout from your products.

 

[shunt2011]

Sure. It just seems that the two main gripes, bad rep for HM soap and liability, are equally at play here. If your family and friends find they just don't like your soap 6 months down the line, will they attribute it to you not knowing what the heck you were doing, or to "oh well, I guess I just don't like this kind of soap. NBD." And if you're worried about liability, I'd argue that donating to vulnerable populations might actually be worse than donating to people who frequent silent auctions for bath products, the former being in much less of a position to treat any fallout from your products.

It was perfectly good safe soap. I had been making soap 8-9 months. Just had too much. I would never donate just made newbie soap. It was still labeled and had my contact information. I still followed the rules for donating. And they could contact me if something happened.

 

[jcandleattic]

I think markets must be quite different over in the USA and UK & EU, and even Aussie to what they are here. We don't need a licence, we don't need insurance, we don't have to register with any professional bodies, we don't have any obligation to anyone but ourselves and our own standards. For selling as a proper business things might be a bit stricter, but to go to a weekend market - anything goes.

For here in the US, or at least in the state where I am, it really depends on who is running the market. Some are as you noted here above with little to no regulation, and some require much more or everything from a business perspective.

For me, we live in such a litigious world these days - to the point where someone will sue you if they get soap in their eyes and it stung a little - to much more serious claims - it is just not worth not having insurance, nor the the proper due diligence to back up why you believe your product is safe - without just saying, "well, I studied and read everything I could so it must be safe" type thing. IF (and let's please hope and pray it never happens, but IF) I ever get sued, I want to have A.) the experience to know what I'm talking about, and B.) the proof to back that experience up...

 

[earlene]

Well, not everyone wants to run a business. Some of us may never sell for that reason, and some may never sell because they feel that it may take the joy out of the hobby. I doubt I will, as I would rather just enjoy soap making as a hobby and not be tied down to filing the paperwork for a business. (I've been there, done that, and am so happy to be retired.)

In some cases, the legal requirements for the business are so complex that some folks may not even want to deal with those. Personally, I don't think I would ever attempt to deal with the complexities of soap sales in the E.U. or even in the state of Florida in the US, from what I have read regarding the business side of things. But for some that's fine, and they have no qualms about dealing with the regulatory side of things.

But even as a hobbiest soap maker, I take pride in making quality soap and would never even give away soap I had not thoroughly evaluated for quality over time. If my soap turned to DOS after I gave it to family or friends, I would be so embarrassed!

Making sure my soap formulas and methods and techniques produce the best quality soap I am able to produce is very important to me. Sure, I've had some failures, but I sure would never give any of those away to anyone. And the only way to ensure my soaps are good in the long run (2 years and more) is to keep them around that long and evaluate them periodically. If they hold up well here in my home that's when I know they are good to give to friends and family and even strangers.