When to start selling

[IrishLass]

For here in the US, or at least in the state where I am, it really depends on who is running the market. Some are as you noted here above with little to no regulation, and some require much more or everything from a business perspective.

For me, we live in such a litigious world these days - to the point where someone will sue you if they get soap in their eyes and it stung a little - to much more serious claims - it is just not worth not having insurance, nor the the proper due diligence to back up why you believe your product is safe - without just saying, "well, I studied and read everything I could so it must be safe" type thing. IF (and let's please hope and pray it never happens, but IF) I ever get sued, I want to have A.) the experience to know what I'm talking about, and B.) the proof to back that experience up...

Yep. There are a lot of sue-happy crazies out there (at least here in the US, for sure). I remember a gal over on another soaping forum who opened up a little brick & mortar soap shop recounting what could've turned into a very ugly situation had it not been for her preparedness with insurance, etc... One of the soaps she had stocked on the shelf for sale in her shop was a chocolate-scented soap. If I remember the story rightly, one day a guy and a gal came into her shop and were kinda loitering suspiciously around the chocolate soap when the gal just takes a bar of it right off the shelf and bites into it and dramatically claims she thought it was a brownie and broke her tooth on it, even though everything was clearly labeled as being soap, and she announces she is suing for injuries. Without batting an eye, the soaper goes into the back office and grabs insurance claim papers and brings them out for the gal to fill out. Well, I guess they weren't expecting that and they quickly made their exit out the shop without even so much as a glance at the papers, never to be seen or heard from again.

It's good to have all your bases covered.


IrishLass

 

[lenarenee]

There do seem to be massively different requirements in different countries...I think Canada's right in the middle, but I also constantly worry about what I might be missing. I don't sell, but I have donated products (not just soap) to silent auctions at the kids' schools and stuff, so I follow GMP and have registered products with Health Canada as required for selling.
I do find it a little funny that there is such a bright line drawn with selling....DON'T sell soap that might be have too much lye or scratchy exfoliants, lose its color or scent, might crack, crumble or develop DOS because the buying public will get turned off handmade soaps. But plenty of people are giving away soap to all and sundry, and don't seem to worry about injuring or offending friends and family

Hadn't thought of it that way and now I'm evaluating my own past behavior.

I've given away upwrapped and unlabeled soap; but always ask about allergies first. I've given old, fo faded soap (the kind you know is going to be deliciously mild and bubbly) but always upfront about it. But never given away something I hadn't tested on myself first.

There is (at least in the US) an implied if not actual contract when a purchase is made that the product functions to predictable standards. It implies a level of expertise and professionalism that free stuff doesn't.

 

[jcandleattic]

I do find it a little funny that there is such a bright line drawn with selling....DON'T sell soap that might be have too much lye or scratchy exfoliants, lose its color or scent, might crack, crumble or develop DOS because the buying public will get turned off handmade soaps. But plenty of people are giving away soap to all and sundry, and don't seem to worry about injuring or offending friends and family

Not necessarily true in all cases.
I never gave my soap out to anybody - friends/relatives/others - until I knew I had a product worthy of sale. I know it's different for others, but that was my experience.
I never even used my first soap on myself until it had a full 6 week cure because I just didn't know what to expect, and back then there wasn't much information on the internet, and very few books on it.
Now I know I can use it before that, however, I have so much, it's rare I will use a soap that is less than a year old.

 

[MGM]

It was perfectly good safe soap. I had been making soap 8-9 months. Just had too much. I would never donate just made newbie soap. It was still labeled and had my contact information. I still followed the rules for donating. And they could contact me if something happened.

Sure. I bet it was perfectly safe and actually quite lovely, given what I've seen here. It just seems there's a line on one side of which is "exchange of money". I'm just pointing out that "disbursement of product" really seems to be where the line should be drawn....Hendejm's Air BnB clients are an equally grey area. Speaking of which, I'm going to an Air BnB next week...mayhap I should leave some soap

 

[KiwiMoose]

For here in the US, or at least in the state where I am, it really depends on who is running the market. Some are as you noted here above with little to no regulation, and some require much more or everything from a business perspective.

For me, we live in such a litigious world these days - to the point where someone will sue you if they get soap in their eyes and it stung a little - to much more serious claims - it is just not worth not having insurance, nor the the proper due diligence to back up why you believe your product is safe - without just saying, "well, I studied and read everything I could so it must be safe" type thing. IF (and let's please hope and pray it never happens, but IF) I ever get sued, I want to have A.) the experience to know what I'm talking about, and B.) the proof to back that experience up...

I remember when McDonalds first cam to New Zealand - I was 15 years old. At some point within those first few years of being here, there was a claim made by a woman in the US who had burnt her mouth on a coffee at McD's. It was in the news and we all laughed and laughed because McD's had to pay her compensation because SHE burnt her mouth. Next thing you know - all our McD's coffee cups over here had the words: "Caution, contents may be hot" written all them. Well we laughed and laughed again, no shirt Sherlock, of course it will be hot, IT'S COFFEE! My mum is the first too complain if she order a coffee anywhere and it's too cold.

 

[amd]

Actually, it wasn't her mouth that got burned. The coffee spilled in her lap and very seriously burned her "lap area", thighs and buttocks, to the extent that she had to get skin grafts, if I remember correctly.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Actually, it wasn't her mouth that got burned. The coffee spilled in her lap and very seriously burned her "lap area", thighs and buttocks, to the extent that she had to get skin grafts, if I remember correctly.

Oh - poor lady. That would be horrible. BUT, in NZ you can't sue the company for having an accident yourself, unless they were at fault by using a cup that was broken or something.

 

[jcandleattic]

I remember when McDonalds first cam to New Zealand - I was 15 years old. At some point within those first few years of being here, there was a claim made by a woman in the US who had burnt her mouth on a coffee at McD's. It was in the news and we all laughed and laughed because McD's had to pay her compensation because SHE burnt her mouth. Next thing you know - all our McD's coffee cups over here had the words: "Caution, contents may be hot" written all them. Well we laughed and laughed again, no shirt Sherlock, of course it will be hot, IT'S COFFEE! My mum is the first too complain if she order a coffee anywhere and it's too cold.

I know people think the McDonald's lawsuit was frivolous, but in reality it wasn't. It was originally a lawsuit to help an elderly woman on a fixed income pay her medical bills.

If it's what I believe you are talking aboutit's the infamous lawsuit by a 79 year old woman that got 3rd degree burns on her inner thighs by spilling coffee in her lap.
However, now that the details of that case have been made public, McDonald's was totally at fault, the woman was only suing for the remaining medical bills she couldn't make on her fixed income, but the jury decided to award her damages in the large amount because they felt McD's just did not care, and the jury wanted to make a point. It really had nothing to do with the woman who was suing the company.
The coffee was found to be 190° - a temperature known to cause 3rd degree burns.

Here is a link you can read about it, and an excerpt taken from that from one of the jurors-

" In a story about the case published shortly after the verdict was delivered in 1994, one of the jurors said over the course of the trial he came to realize the case was about “callous disregard for the safety of the people.” Another juror said “the facts were so overwhelmingly against the company.” "

https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts

Actually, it wasn't her mouth that got burned. The coffee spilled in her lap and very seriously burned her "lap area", thighs and buttocks, to the extent that she had to get skin grafts, if I remember correctly.

We posted about the same thing. I posted a link to the article with a few facts from the case.

 

[shunt2011]

Sure. I bet it was perfectly safe and actually quite lovely, given what I've seen here. It just seems there's a line on one side of which is "exchange of money". I'm just pointing out that "disbursement of product" really seems to be where the line should be drawn....Hendejm's Air BnB clients are an equally grey area. Speaking of which, I'm going to an Air BnB next week...mayhap I should leave some soap

The line is when you start a business and sell. I had to register a business name, get a sales tax ID and got insurance. Family won’t sue you. I had a kid take a bite out of a cupcake soap. Fortunately the parents thought it hysterical. Signs clearly stated soap.

All it really comes down to is knowing your product keeping good records and cover yourself with insurance. Anything can happen.

 

[jcandleattic]

Family won’t sue you

You've never met my family!! LOL Of course it's not over soap, it's over estate property rights, oil rights, and eminent domain, but still family absolutely will sue family.

 

[Meena]

Just saw this 2009 post. I think it was @IrishLass who said "we've seen it all", and surely this is part of it!

"hi! im krissy. i have thought about making soap for years but never worked up the nerve to try. i decide to open my own soap business and tried out my first soap project yesterday. i did HP because it seemed easier. anyways...i am a SAHM"

 

[SaltedFig]

@jcandleattic - your first link isn't working

The video in your second link is comprehensive (thanks - it has interviews with the victim, both lawyers and a good bit of detail - don't look if your squeamish - she had burns to 16% of her body, and her daughter said 6% were 3rd degree burns - they showed photo's of her injuries )
(Youtube pCkL9UlmCOE)

@KiwiMoose, the fault was in the temperature of the coffee - your accident scheme (interesting, I didn't know about that before!) does have provision for exemplary damages (punishment money, basically), which was where most of the money in this hot coffee case came from ... apparently there were about 700 other burns incidents before this lady was burned, and she had only asked for her expenses to be paid ... it was the jury that chose to award punitive damages ( ... basically they gave her 2 days of Macca's coffee earnings, in lieu of 2 days wages!).

 

[jcandleattic]

@jcandleattic - your first link isn't working

I meant to un-link that, I just copied and pasted from the actual second link. It's towards the bottom and in the article itself. I thought it just didn't work for me because they block so much stuff here at my office.

I'll go edit it, so others don't get frustrated.

 

[KiwiMoose]

I know people think the McDonald's lawsuit was frivolous, but in reality it wasn't. It was originally a lawsuit to help an elderly woman on a fixed income pay her medical bills.

If it's what I believe you are talking aboutit's the infamous lawsuit by a 79 year old woman that got 3rd degree burns on her inner thighs by spilling coffee in her lap.
However, now that the details of that case have been made public, McDonald's was totally at fault, the woman was only suing for the remaining medical bills she couldn't make on her fixed income, but the jury decided to award her damages in the large amount because they felt McD's just did not care, and the jury wanted to make a point. It really had nothing to do with the woman who was suing the company.
The coffee was found to be 190° - a temperature known to cause 3rd degree burns.

Here is a link you can read about it, and an excerpt taken from that from one of the jurors-

" In a story about the case published shortly after the verdict was delivered in 1994, one of the jurors said over the course of the trial he came to realize the case was about “callous disregard for the safety of the people.” Another juror said “the facts were so overwhelmingly against the company.” "

https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts

And that’s the other difference between NZ and the US. There are no medical bills for such treatment here - it’s free.

 

[jcandleattic]

And that’s the other difference between NZ and the US. There are no medical bills for such treatment here - it’s free.

Wouldn't that be nice here!! It's coming, just not soon enough, and there will be years to kinks to work through that'll make it difficult to maneuver.

 

[shunt2011]

You've never met my family!! LOL Of course it's not over soap, it's over estate property rights, oil rights, and eminent domain, but still family absolutely will sue family.

The may over something else but not soap. They love my soap. Ha ha.

 

[Snowbell]

Not only should local laws be followed and insurance being a must have, there is also the trust factor. From the first time you sell your product you are building trust with that customer. So selling something subpar will be a huge dis service to you in the long run. And with today’s social media you might be the last to know. Look at anything commercially made it took them years to get their product to market.

 

[jcandleattic]

The may over something else but not soap. They love my soap. Ha ha.

Mine too, but with petty families (in general not yours, LOL), and our sue happy society it wouldn't surprise me if family sued over soap. Honestly, it would not surprise me in the least.

 

[Hendejm]

How did we get from selling soap and it’s inplications - all the way to a lawsuit with McDonalds where a woman was severely burned? I don’t see the correlation.

To me - making soap is part art and part science. Art is a very personal expression of a person. If they choose to sell their products then I’m ok with that.

For those that are connecting the dots between a newbie soaper and some ***** who takes a bite out of a bar of soap - shame on you! Yes it can happen - but that scenario can happen regardless of being a new soaper or a seasoned soaper with 20 yrs experience.

We come to these forums to learn - and many of us have learned to get insurance, pay taxes, perfect a recipe, prepare for the unexpected, educate the consumer, etc.

Some will heed the advice to wait and that’s great. Others will forge ahead and that’s great too. It’s like a parent watching a child leave home at 18 (or whenever) - you prepare them, you educate them, you nurture them - but ultimately - they need to learn to be an adult by experience. That young adult will have failures and heart break - they don’t do “life” right 100%of the time (probably not even 50% of the time). But the point is - ultimately they have to learn BY DOING! How many parents have said to themselves “I didn’t raise my child to be like that”? Regardless of what we teach our children or want for them - they have to learn those lessons for themselves with EXPERIENCE. You can’t get experience on a forum or by asking questions. You get experience by DOING and making mistakes - learning from those mistakes and doing it better the next time.

Soaping isn’t any different really - to me. Give everyone that is new a break! Guide them, nurture them, encourage them, course correct them when necessary, be there when they make a mistake and offer help for a better outcome next time. But please don’t discourage them, plant your fears in their heads....pass on your jaded outlook of the future of soaping to them. Please let them fly or allow them to fail - but please allow them to do what’s right for them.

 

[SaltedFig]

How did we get from selling soap and it’s inplications - all the way to a lawsuit with McDonalds where a woman was severely burned? I don’t see the correlation.

To me - making soap is part art and part science. Art is a very personal expression of a person. If they choose to sell their products then I’m ok with that.

For those that are connecting the dots between a newbie soaper and some ***** who takes a bite out of a bar of soap - shame on you! Yes it can happen - but that scenario can happen regardless of being a new soaper or a seasoned soaper with 20 yrs experience.

We come to these forums to learn - and many of us have learned to get insurance, pay taxes, perfect a recipe, prepare for the unexpected, educate the consumer, etc.

Some will heed the advice to wait and that’s great. Others will forge ahead and that’s great too. It’s like a parent watching a child leave home at 18 (or whenever) - you prepare them, you educate them, you nurture them - but ultimately - they need to learn to be an adult by experience. That young adult will have failures and heart break - they don’t do “life” right 100%of the time (probably not even 50% of the time). But the point is - ultimately they have to learn BY DOING! How many parents have said to themselves “I didn’t raise my child to be like that”? Regardless of what we teach our children or want for them - they have to learn those lessons for themselves with EXPERIENCE. You can’t get experience on a forum or by asking questions. You get experience by DOING and making mistakes - learning from those mistakes and doing it better the next time.

Soaping isn’t any different really - to me. Give everyone that is new a break! Guide them, nurture them, encourage them, course correct them when necessary, be there when they make a mistake and offer help for a better outcome next time. But please don’t discourage them, plant your fears in their heads....pass on your jaded outlook of the future of soaping to them. Please let them fly or allow them to fail - but please allow them to do what’s right for them.

Probably the same way we got talking about business in the beginners section ... by heading off topic
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/beginner-not-business-related-posts-please.51802/