What to use as antioxidants?

[Zany_in_CO]

In an excellent study on DOS that appeared in The Journal of the Hancrafted Soapmaker Guild in 2004/2005, it mentions the efficacy of BHT + Sodium Citrate in reducing the appearance of DOS. Personally, I use ROE and add a little Vitamin E for its skin-loving properties to almost all my oils once opened. Normally, I would share the link to the following information, but all I have is the PDF file. The following quote is at the end and contains the conclusions drawn from the study:

Do additves do better when combined?
We next looked at combinations of additives. Vitamin E (0.1 g) + Sodium Citrate (0.1g) performed slightly better than Vitamin E alone, that is to say, it did not perform very well. ROE + Sodium Citrate actually performed worse than ROE alone. Three combinations, however, performed dramatically better than any single additive. BHT + EDTA and ROE + EDTA each lengthened the induction period beyond 300 hours and held the eventual color saturation below 25%.
(Unable to show Chart)
The best combination in our tests, however, came from BHT + Sodium Citrate. Used together, they lengthened the induction period beyond 300 hours and held the eventual color saturation to about 10%, the same color as fresh soap.
(Unable to show Chart)
As a result of our tests we suggest that by using 0.1% of your oil weight of BHT and Sodium Citrate you may altogether prevent the appearance of DOS. Inevita- bly, however, we will run into the ongoing, quasi-religious debate between the use of natural and artificial additives. A full discussion of that debate is probably better left for another article.

Suffice it to say that while I, personally, have no qualms about the use of artificial additives, there are many in the handcrafted soap community who do. In particular, many of your customers may value natural ingredients, perhaps even insisting on them. I believe that one of the chief advantages which the handcrafted soapmaker has over the industrial soapmaker is the ability to tailor soap recipes to the preferences of individual customers.

If your client base is heavily tilted toward natural ingredients, using 0.1% of your oil weight in ROE is very likely to significantly extend your shelf life. If, on the other hand, your client base is indifferent to the natural/artificial distinction, the combination of BHT and Sodium Citrate is likely to out-perform ROE as a preservative.

Whatever you decide to do, I would urge you to accurately label your soaps. People have myriad reasons for their preferences, some due to medical conditions, some due to allergies, some due to crackpot theories or personal whims. They have a right to those preferences, whatever their reasons. Your only choice is whether or not to serve customers with those particular preferences.

HTH :bunny:
​

 

[beardguy]

Since I buy all my lard from Walmart, I don't want DOS and I don't give two you know what about scaremongering (and I'm not looking to sell), where do you buy BHT or EDTA for that matter ? I checked with the online soap suppliers I have bought from (Saffire Blue, Voyageur soap and New Directions) and none of them seem to have BHT or EDTA.

 

[IrishLass]

I buy my Tetrasodium EDTA from LotionCrafter


IrishLass

 

[beardguy]

Thank you for that info ! I will pick some up along with ROE.

 

[mx5inpenn]

Since I buy all my lard from Walmart, I don't want DOS and I don't give two you know what about scaremongering (and I'm not looking to sell), where do you buy BHT or EDTA for that matter ? I checked with the online soap suppliers I have bought from (Saffire Blue, Voyageur soap and New Directions) and none of them seem to have BHT or EDTA.

If you are buying the armour brand lard, it has BHT added.

 

[beardguy]

If you are buying the armour brand lard, it has BHT added.

Sadly, Walmart doesn't seem to carry Armour lard around here, only Tenderflake. It still has bht, bha and citric acid.

 

[earlene]

Sadly, Walmart doesn't seem to carry Armour lard around here, only Tenderflake. It still has bht, bha and citric acid.

Walmart is so unpredictable that way! I have discovered in my travels that I cannot count on any given Walmart to carry the same brands, or even sometimes, the same product. But it sure makes shopping interesting.

 

[Rune]

Rune, I am sort of a newbie to CP too. But I think I have found my groove. My favorite thing to do is substitute the water or some of the water of your lye with juices or purees from natural elements. Soaping1o1 on utube has amazing videos on this.

The other day I had vegetables left (carrots and cucumbers) and I juiced them to use as my lye water. Loved the results, it did not even need color or fragrance. You can get your antioxidants that way.

A great idea! I have been thinking about that, sort of. Because in Sweden they have all sorts of concentrated juice packages. A small package that you must dillute at home, it gives 1 litre. But I found out that every single one of them had citric acid added to them, and I thought no, that will destroy the lye. But now I hear that citric acid is a wanted ingrediens. So I will buy some of those juices. The only problem is that I don't know how much citric acid they contain. But I guess that is possible to find out. It is especially the lingonberry juice I want to make soap with. That juice is bright red and taste fantastic! They also have blueberry juice and much more. And they are dead cheap. Here in Norway, nothing like that exists. We have only regular fruit juices and not very many to choose from. And they are not cheap either. To juice fruits and vegetables myself is at the moment not an option, because I then have to buy a fruit juicer. Not that they aren't cheap, but it's easier to just buy premade. And there will be no clutter from unused kitchen appliances all over the place. Plus vegetables and fruits are expensive here. We are so far north that the shipping from Southern Europe, where they are produced, is extreme. Paprika costs around $5,50 per kilo, for example. One cucumber is around $1,70. But I want to make a carrot soap. And there is no carrot juice nowhere to be found here or in Sweden, except from a very expensive and very bad tasting one with muddy color. So I have to find a way to make carrot juice without a juicer. A blender will maybe do the job.

 

[Rune]

Also, if you plan on making 100% castille it's not a very good soap and needs to cure a very long time. A year and it's an okay soap.

A year, hmm. Yes, I don't know how long it have to cure except that it has to be at least 4 months. I saw testing done in South Africa, one lady that had several castile soaps from several curing times, and there was little difference from 4 months and upward, the did only get a little harder. BUT, that is South Africa, a hot country. This country is cold and humid. So I had calculated that I have to cure at least 5 months. But maybe it will need a full year. And that is why I am so afraid of DOS. The longer time it cures, the higher the chances are for the free flowing oils to go rancid.

I will anyway add some stearic acid or other rock hard waxes. Both so it can unmold without waiting a week, and that it gets a little extra hardness to make it last longer in the shower.

If other fats, like coconut and so on, where available here for an okey price, then I would most likely had decided on some sort of Bastille soap recipe. The only place I can get coconut oil for an acceptable price, is if I order online from abroad. But that is a pain like no other. Because we have nazi customs. They stop every single parcel, and if you are very, very lucky and good to make up stories, they let the parcel pass thru customs without sending you a bill with a $25 fee and 25% VAT. We can order for a value no more than $41 INCLUDED the price for the shipping. So I can't get much coconut oil for that price.

There is another way, and that is to mail the company and ask if they can send the parcel from a private person's name and wrap it as a present. Like write happy birthday all over it and such. That works, but you see, it is so much work ordering online from abroad, that oils and fats are the last thing I want to buy. There are no Norwegian suppliers either, apart from health stores with their hefty prices. So I have to use what I can find in grocery stores. And luckily, olive oil is so cheap it is almost for free. We have coconut fat in stores as well, but that is for baking and the price is quite a lot for only 250 grams. The price for 250 grams of coconut is around the same as for 4000 grams (4 litre) of olive oil. So that's why it has to be castile soaps. At least I will start there first, since I am not rich at the moment.

But coconut and such are available if I ask a bakery to order it for me. Their suppliers have all sorts of fats, and I guess the prices are lower than in grocery stores, and in bigger packages. Like 10 kilos or so.

 

[Rune]

Here is a list of things with very high antioxidant levels:

https://www.superfoodly.com/orac-values/

Dragon's blood, that should do the trick. But I imagine that it is very, very expensive, and it will not dissolve in oil easily. Astaxanthin powder is maybe easier to use.

 

[IrishLass]

A great idea! I have been thinking about that, sort of. Because in Sweden they have all sorts of concentrated juice packages.

I don't mean to burst your soap bubble or anything , but just be aware that the natural colors from juices are not pH stable enough to last very long in lye-based soap without having a little 'help' from pH-stable colorants such as micas or oxides or ultramarines. I've made several batches of carrot soap and also cucumber soap (I juice the peel and all to get that lovely emerald green), and the colors do morph over time. The lovely orange morphs to a muddy color and the cucumber to a khaki-like color. But if I add a little orange mica and TD to the carrot juice or a little chromium hydroxide green and TD to the cucumber juice, the colors stay true.

Also- the antioxidant levels in juices are not concentrated enough to be able to do the job demanded of soap such as ROE or BHT would do.


IrishLass

 

[SunRiseArts]

A great idea! I have been thinking about that, sort of. Because in Sweden they have all sorts of concentrated juice packages. A small package that you must dillute at home, it gives 1 litre. But I found out that every single one of them had citric acid added to them, and I thought no, that will destroy the lye. But now I hear that citric acid is a wanted ingrediens. So I will buy some of those juices. The only problem is that I don't know how much citric acid they contain. But I guess that is possible to find out. It is especially the lingonberry juice I want to make soap with. That juice is bright red and taste fantastic! They also have blueberry juice and much more. And they are dead cheap. Here in Norway, nothing like that exists. We have only regular fruit juices and not very many to choose from. And they are not cheap either. To juice fruits and vegetables myself is at the moment not an option, because I then have to buy a fruit juicer. Not that they aren't cheap, but it's easier to just buy premade. And there will be no clutter from unused kitchen appliances all over the place. Plus vegetables and fruits are expensive here. We are so far north that the shipping from Southern Europe, where they are produced, is extreme. Paprika costs around $5,50 per kilo, for example. One cucumber is around $1,70. But I want to make a carrot soap. And there is no carrot juice nowhere to be found here or in Sweden, except from a very expensive and very bad tasting one with muddy color. So I have to find a way to make carrot juice without a juicer. A blender will maybe do the job.

I understand what others are saying. If you decide to use the juice you do need to be very careful adding the lye, or the sugar can burn, but I am all up for experimenting! I learned to make soap watching soaping 101 and soap queen channels on you tube. Nobody in my family is a soap makes, and I grew up as a city sleeker! lol Soaping101 does a lot of experimenting. Some of it I question, like using grass and leaves, as many people could have allergic reaction, but I am all up for trying new things. I love learning!

One of the first soaps I made, and I loved was the carrot puree soap. Is made with baby food. There are so many options in baby food, but not sure which ones can work. I have been wondering about applesauce. Has anyone ever tried it? I am curious. I do make sure to get GMO free and organic baby food. I am thinking of trying the beet one next. They do not need extra color or scent. Mine is already 8 weeks old, and still looks like when I cut it. I love it.

Here is the recipe I used if it helps:
http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/education/recipes/pureed-carrot-cold-process-soap.aspx

 

[SunRiseArts]

How about tea IrishLass? have you ever used tea instead of lye water? Does it give color or change?

 

[cherrycoke216]

Here is a list of things with very high antioxidant levels:

https://www.superfoodly.com/orac-values/

Dragon's blood, that should do the trick. But I imagine that it is very, very expensive, and it will not dissolve in oil easily. Astaxanthin powder is maybe easier to use.

Astaxathin is used as an anti-aging cosmetics ingredient. So you can imagine it's not a cheap ingredient for you to put in oils to use as anti-oxidant. Its facial product has been a hit in Japan and Asia.

 

[Brynhilde]

Do you use the vitamin E capsules from Costco, from Kirkland Signature brand? That and another capsule is the only one I can find at costco.com. I should be able to find vitamin E capsules at a local health food store or the pharmacy, maybe cheaper than the liquid vitamin E.

I googled it now, and it is superexpensive here. And you get maximum 60 capsules. So that is not an option.

I have found prices for vitamin E in France (Aroma-Zone). It is 8 dollars for a 30 ml bottle. The strenght is only 50%, and I found on a forum that you are supposed to add 2-3 tablespoons per gallon of base oil. And we can double that since it is just 50% strong. And then the 30 ml bottle will be gone in an instant. So that is too expensive. Rosemary was even more expensive. Hmm. But there must be a cheaper alternative somewhere than vitamin E and rosemary.

I found on a Norwegian pharmacy's website that they have vitamin E for animals. That is in bigger bottles and full strenght, so it will be cheaper. But it's synthetic, and I can't use that if I shall claim my soaps to be 100% natural. And I really want to make all natural soaps. Not that I have anything against synthetic ingredients, but I'm just more attracted to the all natural scents and colors and so on. I like the bleeding and morphing and all the unpredictable stuff that natural colorants can do :-D

Have you checked the norwegian netstore sunvita? If you buy there, you don't have to worry about customs.

 

[cmzaha]

Since I buy all my lard from Walmart, I don't want DOS and I don't give two you know what about scaremongering (and I'm not looking to sell), where do you buy BHT or EDTA for that matter ? I checked with the online soap suppliers I have bought from (Saffire Blue, Voyageur soap and New Directions) and none of them seem to have BHT or EDTA.

Making cosmetics.com carries BHT and so does this one. I did not compare shipping http://myworldhut.com/products/BHT-...ne)-Powder-Food%2dGrade-Antioxidant-Bulk.html

I would rather add in a tiny pinch of additional BHT and not lose a batch of soap. Several brands of lard have bht added

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Several brands of lard have bht added

I didn't know that! I have currently have Morrell Snow Cap Lard -- "With hydrogenated lard, BHT and BHA added to help protect flavor". Hmmmm. Thanks for the head's up, (((Carolyn))).

 

[cerelife]

When I clicked on the link, I did notice that she mentions that she has successfully used olive oil purchased from places like Sam's Club (which is where I buy my olive oil) toward the end of the article. So the article is kind of misleading and obviously meant to steer soapers toward Brambleberry products. It seems like they intentionally chose small grocery stores and off-brands to create failures. I personally don't use extra virgin, virgin, or lite olive oils.
None of my 1+ year old castile soaps have developed DOS nor gave me any trouble while soaping. I'm one of those weirdos who like castile (sorry Shunt!) and my Rosemary Peppermint castile is my 'go-to' facial soap because it's mild and has a little coolness/tingle to it that feels good on my face

 

[Susie]

How about tea IrishLass? have you ever used tea instead of lye water? Does it give color or change?

It gives you a blechy tan color no matter what color you start with. So very disappointing!

 

[DeeAnna]

Another thing to keep in mind -- I'm catching a flavor in this conversation that people might be assuming ANY antioxidant will work for protecting fats and soap. Antioxidants that work with living tissues are not necessarily effective when protecting non-living material.