"Unpopular" Ingredients.

[Maythorn]

Medeival sounds really fun. It reminds me of the handmaiden image and soap in chunks maybe a little rough or unevenly cut? It also brings to mind lard, tallow and olive oil especially.

Crocoturtle I bet all you make is very pure and good. I lived on a farm for a short time and I was terrible because I got attached to every animal and named them and could never kill one so that makes me a complete hypocrite. I eat storebought meat and fish and somehow I feel "removed" from the harsh reality. I was much better off at a dairy and I think that's why I love milk soaps. Milk or cream anything!

 

[Second Impression]

I just learned today that any refined oil has been stripped of the proteins that cause allergic reactions. According to the research, refined oil can usually be safely consumed even by allergic individuals. I am not personally allergic to peanuts, and I am NOT advocating running right out and drinking any, I am just saying that based on that information I *think* it would be unlikely to be a problem in soap. ALWAYS label it accurately and let others decide for themselves, too.

I searched but couldn't find anything, do you have a source? Really interested in what you found. Just from what you said here, it just doesn't sound right at all. I'm going to assume the research only looked specifically at peanut protein allergies and the oil was refined in a lab setting, I highly doubt food grade refined peanut oil is processed thoroughly enough to denature or remove all trace of protein. Even then, allergies and immunology are tricky and so, so complicated.

As to whether an allergic individual could still react to a soap made from an oil they are allergic to, yes and no. It depends on a lot of factors like whether they are dermatologically allergic, how sensitive they are if they are just allergic to the oil or any byproduct of that oil.

ITA with you though when you say to fully label and leave it up to the consumer to decide.

Oh, and while researching your post, I came across articles saying that it's common for olive oil to be cut with peanut oil. GAH! It does leave me really curious about your post though because if it's really that prevelent, and my guess about food grade peanut oils not being refined to the point of being innocuous, then I would expect more people with peanut allergies to be allergic to various "olive oils". roblem:

 

[Kansas Farm Girl]

I found some things about peanut oil here http://www.peanut-institute.org/eating-well/allergy/peanut-oil-no-allergens.asp
The fact is that highly refined peanut oil is different from peanuts, peanut butter, and peanut flour when it comes to allergy. This is because most peanut oil undergoes a refining process, in which it is purified, refined, bleached, and deodorized. When peanut oil is correctly processed and becomes highly refined, the proteins in the oil, which are the components in the oil that can cause allergic reaction, are removed. This makes the peanut oil allergen-free! The vast majority of peanut oil that is used in foodservice and by consumers in the U.S. is processed and is considered highly refined.

This is put out by peanut promoters, so do we take it with a grain of salt?

The WebMD site says this http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...redientId=483&activeIngredientName=PEANUT OIL

Peanut oil is safe for most people when taken by mouth, applied to the skin, or used rectally in medicinal amounts.
Special Precautions & Warnings:

Pregnancy and breast-feeding: Peanut oil is safe in amounts found in food, but there’s not enough information to know if it’s safe in the larger amounts that are used as medicine. Stick to normal food amounts if you are pregnant or breast-feeding.

Allergy to peanuts, soybeans, and related plants: Peanut oil can cause serious allergic reactions in people who are allergic to peanuts, soybeans, and other members of the Fabaceae plant family.

Since I SF, even if saponification does change the oil enough not to cause a reaction, I don't think I will replace any of my AOs with it, or any other oil I currently use.

I don't think most people realize store bought soap has AOs or lye in it. Many people are concerned with "lye soap" because historically maybe it was harsh, depending on who made it and if they had ever heard of SF. If they do see the list of ingredients for those soaps they do not recognize what "sodium tallowate" really is - the result of the chemical reaction between tallow and lye.

Can't please them all, so I only try to please those I love.

 

[new12soap]

I searched but couldn't find anything, do you have a source? Really interested in what you found. Just from what you said here, it just doesn't sound right at all. I'm going to assume the research only looked specifically at peanut protein allergies and the oil was refined in a lab setting, I highly doubt food grade refined peanut oil is processed thoroughly enough to denature or remove all trace of protein. Even then, allergies and immunology are tricky and so, so complicated.

As to whether an allergic individual could still react to a soap made from an oil they are allergic to, yes and no. It depends on a lot of factors like whether they are dermatologically allergic, how sensitive they are if they are just allergic to the oil or any byproduct of that oil.

ITA with you though when you say to fully label and leave it up to the consumer to decide.

Oh, and while researching your post, I came across articles saying that it's common for olive oil to be cut with peanut oil. GAH! It does leave me really curious about your post though because if it's really that prevelent, and my guess about food grade peanut oils not being refined to the point of being innocuous, then I would expect more people with peanut allergies to be allergic to various "olive oils". roblem:

My initial source was a phone conversation with a major oil supplier. I had never heard that before (as I said, I do not have that particular issue so I am not up to speed on allergens), so I went to trusty old Google. It would seem that there have been a number of studies indicating that the refining process does remove the component that causes an allergic reaction, but more studies are needed to determine an acceptable threshold. If you read here http://www.fda.gov/food/labelingnut...complianceregulatoryinformation/ucm106108.htm go to E. Allergenic Foods of Concern, 2. Food Ingredients, third paragraph. There is reference to food grade refined peanut and soy oils, as opposed to unrefined oils from known allergens. Interesting stuff.

At any rate, I think that if you are using refined oils, then totally changing their chemical composition into soap, then using that soap topically and rinsing it off... MY TOTALLY UNLEARNED OPINION is that it seems unlikely to cause a reaction. If I had any personal concerns about myself or my family I would think that is a good starting point for a conversation with an immunologist, but as far as sales or gifts of products again I will provide ingredients and let each one judge for themselves.

 

[AngelMomma]

I read the same thing on a menu food info pamphlet from Chick-fil-a. I had asked for one to see the ingredients as to avoid any wheat. It said that they fry all their food in peanut oil and that it won't cause any allergic reactions. My daughter has a school friend that has a bad peanut allergy and she eats fried foods there all the time.

 

[Badger]

I plan on making both types. One for medieval fairs, and the rest for mundanes ( modern folk at regular fairs). I want to have the realistic experience of doing so. I am a medievalist. That means trying to recreate the techniques of the Middle Ages. If I don't use the ingredients they had. Then how can I say my product is as close as possible to the product produced back then.

I am in a medieval recreation group (SCA) myself and would be interested to know if you have any period recipes that you have found. I actually went to a soap making class several years ago at a medieval event, and have wanted to try it since before then, but was not until now that I started it.

I would love to hear more about how you incorporate your medieval techniques into soap making.

 

[Moonshea Botanicals]

I am in the SCA also. I have not tried to convert any of the recipes I have just yet, but I would like to try to do so in the future. Right now I'd like to get the modern process down first.

 

[Badger]

Nice to meet someone else in the SCA. If I find any recipes that look promising, I will pass them on to you.

 

[Moonshea Botanicals]

Too cool! I will do the same. We aren't too horribly far away from each other too. Lol I'm in the Long Island southern, NY area.

 

[DWinMadison]

Medeival sounds really fun. It reminds me of the handmaiden image and soap in chunks maybe a little rough or unevenly cut? It also brings to mind lard, tallow and olive oil especially.

Crocoturtle I bet all you make is very pure and good. I lived on a farm for a short time and I was terrible because I got attached to every animal and named them and could never kill one so that makes me a complete hypocrite. I eat store bought meat and fish and somehow I feel "removed" from the harsh reality. I was much better off at a dairy and I think that's why I love milk soaps. Milk or cream anything!

If I may wax philosophical for a minute, there is an interesting social and spiritual principle at play here. The social principle is that as we remove ourselves further and further from the sources of our food, we have less and less appreciation for how precious it is. My grandparents didn't make pets of their livestock any more than the tomatoes they grew, but they knew how hard it was to produce both, and they treated them both with respect. Let's face it you don't find many vegetarian farmers, although my grandparents ate meat sparingly and appreciated the fact that they had it or anything else during hard times.

Spiritually...well that's a long discussion probably not appropriate for this board, but suffice it to say, when you had to kill your best lamb to make atonement for your crappy sins, it made you think twice about how precious life is and that sin/disobedience has a cost associated with it. [/end_sermon] Irrespective of your faith journey, I think it is honorable, if you have to kill an animal, to waste as little of it as possible.

One of the things I like about making soap is that it puts me back in touch with nature in an increasingly synthetic world. Now I think I'll make myself a cup of tea and ponder life for a minute or two before I answer all these emails.

 

[Ruthie]

Spiritually...well that's a long discussion probably not appropriate for this board, but suffice it to say, when you had to kill your best lamb to make atonement for your crappy sins, it made you think twice about how precious life is and that sin/disobedience has a cost associated with it. [/end_sermon] Irrespective of your faith journey, I think it is honorable, if you have to kill an animal, to waste as little of it as possible.

One of the thinks I like about making soap is that it puts me back in touch with nature in an increasingly synthetic world. Now I think I'll make myself a cup of tea and ponder life for a minute or two before I answer all these emails.

Shawnee alluded to this, but living in Oklahoma, society here has undertones of the Native American culture, and particularly when one hunts to fill one's freezer (such as deer, etc.) honor is given to that living thing. It is NOT praying to the animal, but honoring it for what it had to give up for you. This carries over into a few people here actually preferring AOs in soaps, since I am using some parts of the animal that might otherwise be wasted.

 

[CaliChan]

I don't think most people realize store bought soap has AOs or lye in it. Many people are concerned with "lye soap" because historically maybe it was harsh, depending on who made it and if they had ever heard of SF. If they do see the list of ingredients for those soaps they do not recognize what "sodium tallowate" really is - the result of the chemical reaction between tallow and lye.

Yep, My mom got all freaked out. she asked me one day asking if i was using lye in my soaps because her boyfriend refused to use my soaps till he knew. then i had to explain to them both that all soap has lye in it commercial or not, its impossible to make soap without it. and that as long as there is a left over superfat there is no reason to worry.

 

[sagehill]

Farm fresh milk needs to be pasturized to have a shelf life, so if you didn't have a processed milk, your soap would be rancid inside a week.

Whooops, can't let this go by without a clarifying comment.

I raise goats and learned to make soap fifteen years ago using fresh goat milk instead of water. Most of the soaps I sold up to ten years ago used 100% fresh milk and none of them ever became rancid. I quit soaping when I moved to another farm in Michigan ten years ago, and restarted again last November when I finally ran out of soap.

The other day I rediscovered two bars of my favorite soap in the basement, goat milk carrot soap made ten years ago that don't even have DOS. I tried a bar... it's hard as a rock and lathers beautifully. The scent's pretty much gone, though, as one would expect with only essential oils.

Of course, I may be biased, since for 15 years the only dairy I consume and sell has been fresh milk, both from my Jersey cow and dairy goats. I go without rather than drink horrible store stuff.

 

[chicklet]

I use fresh raw cow's milk in many of my soaps. I make yogurt for my honey-yogurt soap and cultured buttermilk for several buttermilks soaps. In one I just use the raw milk. Pasteurization does extend the shelf life of commercial milk. When I make yogurt, I pasteurize the milk but not at the high temps commercial dairies use. Raw milk that is unhomogenized doesn't really go bad - it just changes forms due to the lactic acid. Even when it smells bad it's still fine for cooking, making yogurt or buttermilk, etc. When commercial milk goes bad, it's BAD because of the homogenization which breaks down the fat molecules to the point that they can't turn into anything else but rotten milk and it has to be thrown out.

 

[Amybell]

I'm pretty new to this all, so take it for what it's worth, but here's my two cents...

While we know the process behind making soap, the average consumer does not. They see "lard" in soap, and all they can think of is slathering lard n their skin. Or they remember the take-your-hide-off soap that their grandmother used to make. Just like they see "sodium hydroxide" or "lye" and think that they are putting dangerous chemicals on their skin. WE know that properly made soap is not caustic. WE know that the chemical reaction uses it up, turns it into soap, and is necessary to create the finished product. They don't. Just like they don't really know that the "lard" will get saponified and little--if-any, depending on saponification and superfat--will be left on the skin. It's the idea of perception. And perception can be a very powerful thing--especially in business. How do you combat it? One way is to know your product. Being educated as a maker and a seller goes a long way when people ask questions. Another way is by word choice. If people are cautious about lye in your market, stating "saponified oils of x,x, and x" might help solve that problem, along with having a thorough understanding of the process so you can talk about it as necessary. I honestly (and this my personal opinion) don't support just using "natural fats" in the ingredient panel. It's such a broad term, and it makes it difficult for people who live certain lifestyles--whether it be by social choice, like veganism, or religious choice, like kosher or halal--to make mindful choices about what they buy and use. If someone doesn't want to use soap because it has lard or tallow in it, then that is their choice, and they should be allowed to exercise that choice. Ambiguous labeling interferes with that choice, in my opinion.

It's easy as a maker to say, "this is the way I want to do it, and I don't care what anyone else thinks." But once you hang your hat out for business, you don't have the luxury of not caring what the consumer thinks. Not if you really want to sell your product and be successful. Unless you don't really need/want the income, in which case, you can do whatever you want. None of that, however, means you have to compromise what you value about your product in order to be in business, but it DOES mean that you need to take into consideration what your market (local or otherwise) wants or expects in a product. Sometimes it means making some changes to your product or price; sometimes it can mean finding creative ways to market your product effectively, identifying your market, and conveying the message that you want/need to reach your market. If you want people to buy your product, you absolutely have to take your market into consideration and act/market accordingly.

I'm new to soapmaking, but I'm not new to business. Up until the last year, I've spent most of my adult life running a photography business. That doesn't make me an expert in anything, but it does give me a little extra insight into market realities. I'm sure I'm not the only one. And again, all of this is all just my very humble opinion anyway.

 

[MaitriBB]

^ AmyBell is wise

 

[sagehill]

Raw milk that is unhomogenized doesn't really go bad - it just changes forms due to the lactic acid. Even when it smells bad it's still fine for cooking, making yogurt or buttermilk, etc. When commercial milk goes bad, it's BAD because of the homogenization which breaks down the fat molecules to the point that they can't turn into anything else but rotten milk and it has to be thrown out.

I meant to say all that, but I forgot. lol

 

[nebetmiw]

Taking the time to talk with customers is worth your time. For those that get eww when they see certain ingridents once you explain that all commercial soap has them they tend to get over it. AO oils and lye are the most people get that ewww about. But if you show them what is in commerical soap yours will look alot better. After all who wants to wash their skin with harsh detregents. Ewwww

 

[Relle]

unless it states raw, most honey is heated to 160 for pasturization. It can still contain botulism spores after pasturization but it is pasturized.

I was speaking to an apiarist on Sunday regarding the above and it all depends what country you are in for pasteurization. Here the honey is not pasteurized and he said the goodness in the honey is destroyed over 40 degrees. The honey labelled here does not state raw honey, it just says 100% honey on the jar. As this is a worldwide forum I think you have to be aware that this information may not be relevant to the country you are in.

 

[nebetmiw]

Another thing a few years back we had a man on here that only soaped with soured goats milk. He said it felt alot better than regular raw goats milk. So yes you can use raw soured milk for soap. After all it all gets soapified by the lye.

Some people have strange ideas when it comes to soap making. I.e. thing have to be pastrized or food ingredints survive the soaping process to pass on minerals and vitamins to your skin. Most do not even survive the cooking process which is lower temp than making soap with lye and it gelling.