Trying to decrease cost of Vegan/Palm-free, soap.

[NativeSoap]

Hello. I'm getting into soap making. I'm trying to make a "Vegan", palm-free cold process soap. I'd like to stay away from canola and crisco as well. I've read about Sunflower, and it's cost effective, but I'm afraid about shelf life and orange spotting. ( I've heard of adding the rosemary extract to help with this, but I don't want a rosemary smell in all my soaps).

After adding up costs to make the soap below, it's not going to be as inexpensive as I thought. Obviously the Shea butter and the Cocoa butter add significantly to the cost. But if I eliminate them, I don't know how I'd get the hardness, etc that could match it.

Maybe someone has suggestions for "where" to purchase the oils below? I'm a beginner and my knowledge is limited, so a couple more "reasonably priced" options would be good. Maybe one day, I'd like to retire, selling at farmers markets, so help a guy out on how to be smart about this. Do I need that many oils to achieve an awesome Vegan bar of soap with all the great properties we're after? If not, what would give me the same "results" and be a lot less expensive?

I appreciate any insight and help!

Current Recipe:
Olive Oil: 35%
Coconut Oil, 76: 25%
Avocado Oil: 6%
Castor Oil: 7%
Cocoa Butter: 12%
Shea Butter 15%

 

[penelopejane]

Increase your olive oil. The soap calcs don’t work for olive oil - it gets very hard. Reduce your coconut oil to 10% it makes soap dissolve really quickly and a lot of people find it really drying on the skin. Reduce your castor oil to 5% any higher and it can cause sticky soap. Castor is one of the few oils you can “notice” in soap at less than 10%. Cut the cocoa butter out altogether (unless it’s really cheap) use up to 30% avocado oil (unless it’s really expensive). Use rice bran oil at 10% as it is cheap and has good qualities at that level. Cut the Shea butter to 10% as it is expensive.

Don’t resort to pumace oil but get kirklands olive oil which is good in the US, I think.

Rosemary Oleoresin Extract is not scented. It is an antioxidant. It’s not the same as rosemary fragrance oil or rosemary essential oil.

This thread is old but it is a fabulous starting point for a really nice soap. NOT as a shampoo bar because it's since been disovered handmade soap isn't good for hair but for your body:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/shampoo-bar-thanks-lindy.30946/

 

[Zany_in_CO]

@NativeSoap!

Current Recipe:
Olive Oil: 35%
Coconut Oil, 76: 25%
Avocado Oil: 6%
Castor Oil: 7%
Cocoa Butter: 12%
Shea Butter 15%

Olive Oil - buy locally at CostCo or Sam's
Coconut Oil - Ditto above plus grocery store, whole foods, etc.
Castor Oil - Pharmacy Dept at Walmart or similar.
Lard ~ buy locally

Save Avocado, Cocoa Butter & Shea butter for later after
making a few small batches of the Basic Trinity of Oils starter formula.

Olive Oil 30% ~ for emollience, conditioning
Castor Oil 5% ~ for emollience, conditioning, bubbles
Coconut 25% ~ for hardness, lather
Lard 40% (or shea butter or a combo) ~ for bulk

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I'm afraid about shelf life and orange spotting. ( I've heard of adding the rosemary extract to help with this, but I don't want a rosemary smell in all my soaps).

"orange spotting" = "DOS" (Dreaded Orange Spots)
No worries. ROE has a low use rate, 1/4 - 1/2 teaspoon PPO (Per Pound Oils). You won't even know it's there. Use the Search feature in the upper right corner of this page to learn more. Here's just one thread about Rosemary Oleoresin Extract (ROE)

ROE, etc, to Keep Bars from Going Rancid

Where to buy oils on line? Google "soap making supplies" plus your Zip Code to find vendors near you. You can also browse through Shopping Recommendations for the most popular sites we use.

 

[NativeSoap]

View attachment 71542@NativeSoap!


Olive Oil - buy locally at CostCo or Sam's
Coconut Oil - Ditto above plus grocery store, whole foods, etc.
Castor Oil - Pharmacy Dept at Walmart or similar.
Lard ~ buy locally

Save Avocado, Cocoa Butter & Shea butter for later after
making a few small batches of the Basic Trinity of Oils starter formula.

Olive Oil 30% ~ for emollience, conditioning
Castor Oil 5% ~ for emollience, conditioning, bubbles
Coconut 25% ~ for hardness, lather
Lard 40% (or shea butter or a combo) ~ for bulk

@Zany_in_CO , thank you for the welcome! I really appreciate all the help, in my first of many posts that I'm sure are to come. I've found the search function very helpful so far!

In the Basic Trinity of Oils recipes, all either use lard or palm. If trying to stay vegan and palm-free, is there really any way around this while still making the affordable soap? Sorry for all the questions. I'm trying to avoid a bunch of wasted $ spent formulating, when I can rely some on experience here in the forum. Everyone's time and energy answering noob's posts are much appreciated.

 

[dibbles]

You are likely to get lots of differing opinions on recipes - you should try a few in small batches to see what you like best as far as skin feel, performance (lather) and longevity. I really like cocoa butter and find it even makes a difference as low as 5%. Shea is more affordable. I don't use it, but soy wax is an option. There is quite a bit of information on the forum about using it and what kind of soy wax to use - do a search to find some threads to read. Probably the biggest difference I see in the preferred amounts of use is with coconut oil. I use 20-25% because I like the lather. I (and any of the people I give soap to) don't find it to be drying at that amount, but I know plenty of others do. Which goes back to testing to see what you like best. I would also suggest keeping castor oil to 5%. A small mold like this is available from lots of suppliers, and is good for testing small batches.

Use high oleic sunflower oil. The best price I can find in my area is at Trader Joe's, but it hasn't always been available during the last 6-8 months. I am not sure, but I think the war in Ukraine is contributing to a shortage, as Ukraine is a major source of sunflower oil.

I agree that Costco or Sam's has the best price for olive oil (use regular, not pomace or extra virgin). For other oils, check Soaper's Choice. In general, that is what works out to be the most economical for me. They don't have small sizes of bottles, so keep that in mind. The best way to save on shipping costs is to order 4 bottles. Also, the coconut oil comes in a bottle which is super annoying since it has to be melted down to get it out and is too big to fit in a microwave. In the summer I set it on our deck or 3-season porch and in the winter I set it on a heat register. If you want smaller size bottles, you will just have to do some comparison shopping to see where your best cost will be.

I add rosemary oleoresin extract (ROE) to my large bottle of sunflower oil when it is first opened. It just takes a tiny amount and there really is no odor once it is mixed in. My olive, avocado and castor oils get used up quickly enough that I don't worry about adding it to those oils. Coconut oil has a very long shelf life. Here is an article by @DeeAnna about using ROE. If you haven't found her Soapy Stuff articles yet, spend some time reading through them.

Good luck, and have fun!

 

[NativeSoap]

"orange spotting" = "DOS" (Dreaded Orange Spots)
No worries. ROE has a low use rate, 1/4 - 1/2 teaspoon PPO (Per Pound Oils). You won't even know it's there. Use the Search feature in the upper right corner of this page to learn more. Here's just one thread about Rosemary Oleoresin Extract (ROE)

ROE, etc, to Keep Bars from Going Rancid

Where to buy oils on line? Google "soap making supplies" plus your Zip Code to find vendors near you. You can also browse through Shopping Recommendations for the most popular sites we use.

@Zany_in_CO thank you for the info on DOS and ROE! I'm happy to hear I can use it. I'm primarily thinking for Sunflower Oil, but do you have any insight on using Sunflower oil over any of the oils in the Basic Trinity of Oils recipes? Would you yourself choose to use it or avoid it and opt for something else? Again, thanks for your insight. I see you answer many questions in this forum.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

@dibbles Well said!

 

[NativeSoap]

You are likely to get lots of differing opinions on recipes - you should try a few in small batches to see what you like best as far as skin feel, performance (lather) and longevity. I really like cocoa butter and find it even makes a difference as low as 5%. Shea is more affordable. I don't use it, but soy wax is an option. There is quite a bit of information on the forum about using it and what kind of soy wax to use - do a search to find some threads to read. Probably the biggest difference I see in the preferred amounts of use is with coconut oil. I use 20-25% because I like the lather. I (and any of the people I give soap to) don't find it to be drying at that amount, but I know plenty of others do. Which goes back to testing to see what you like best. I would also suggest keeping castor oil to 5%. A small mold like this is available from lots of suppliers, and is good for testing small batches.

Use high oleic sunflower oil. The best price I can find in my area is at Trader Joe's, but it hasn't always been available during the last 6-8 months. I am not sure, but I think the war in Ukraine is contributing to a shortage, as Ukraine is a major source of sunflower oil.

I agree that Costco or Sam's has the best price for olive oil (use regular, not pomace or extra virgin). For other oils, check Soaper's Choice. In general, that is what works out to be the most economical for me. They don't have small sizes of bottles, so keep that in mind. The best way to save on shipping costs is to order 4 bottles. Also, the coconut oil comes in a bottle which is super annoying since it has to be melted down to get it out and is too big to fit in a microwave. In the summer I set it on our deck or 3-season porch and in the winter I set it on a heat register. If you want smaller size bottles, you will just have to do some comparison shopping to see where your best cost will be.

I add rosemary oleoresin extract (ROE) to my large bottle of sunflower oil when it is first opened. It just takes a tiny amount and there really is no odor once it is mixed in. My olive, avocado and castor oils get used up quickly enough that I don't worry about adding it to those oils. Coconut oil has a very long shelf life. Here is an article by @DeeAnna about using ROE. If you haven't found her Soapy Stuff articles yet, spend some time reading through them.

Good luck, and have fun!

@dibbles wow thank you so much for all the detailed iinfo on everything. I decided to become a Supporting Member just now, less than 24 hrs of signing up, because of all the help from my very first question post! It's almost like starting a new job, where you start off not knowing much.

I'll do my due diligence in researching and studying, I'm just trying to avoid some costly mistakes. Again, thank you for some direction! It's much appreciated! Thanks in advance to everyone who sees my questions/comments around the forum going forward and helps me out!!

 

[NativeSoap]

Increase your olive oil. The soap calcs don’t work for olive oil - it gets very hard. Reduce your coconut oil to 10% it makes soap dissolve really quickly and a lot of people find it really drying on the skin. Reduce your castor oil to 5% any higher and it can cause sticky soap. Castor is one of the few oils you can “notice” in soap at less than 10%. Cut the cocoa butter out altogether (unless it’s really cheap) use up to 30% avocado oil (unless it’s really expensive). Use rice bran oil at 10% as it is cheap and has good qualities at that level. Cut the Shea butter to 10% as it is expensive.

Don’t resort to pumace oil but get kirklands olive oil which is good in the US, I think.

Rosemary Oleoresin Extract is not scented. It is an antioxidant. It’s not the same as rosemary fragrance oil or rosemary essential oil.

This thread is old but it is a fabulous starting point for a really nice soap. NOT as a shampoo bar because it's since been disovered handmade soap isn't good for hair but for your body:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/shampoo-bar-thanks-lindy.30946/

@penelopejane , thanks for the recipe link. Since it's a shampoo bar, it would be pretty soft wouldn't it? According to the %'s I plugged in, here is what it looks like. Have you tried this recipe just as a normal hand/body wash? All the numbers seem low (except for "creamy", and the conditioning high. Again, I've not made soap yet, but just asking since these numbers seem opposite of other recipes I've looked at. Thanks for any further explanation.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Olive oil doesn't show up well in the soap calculator - it is actually very hard if you let it cure for 6 months or more. The calculator will show it as high conditioning.

I use soy wax GW415 at 20% of my recipe so that I don't have to use cocoa butter which is what I used to use (and found it too expensive). I also replaced half my OO with Rice Bran Oil because it's half the price of OO here. I understand that may not be the case in the USA though. It's important to note that soy wax is not actually a wax, it just hydrogenated soybean oil.

 

[A-Polly]

Like others here, I get my olive oil (the store brand "pure" that comes in a 3-liter bottle) at Sam's Club, because it's the best price that's local and easily available to me. I get coconut oil and avocado oil there, too. And like dibbles, I buy high-oleic sunflower oil at Trader Joe's — after being out of stock for months, they had it back on the shelves last time I shopped there. You might have other options wherever you are.

If you've not ever made soap yet, you might want to stick with small batches of a tried and true recipe at first. One of my favorite resources (in addition to everyone on this forum!) is Amanda Aaron's Lovin' Soap Studio website. Here is a link to her basic recipes that she provides for free: Basic Cold Process Soap Recipes to Get You Started!

I can attest that the 3 recipes at the top of the post all work well, and are vegan. The only thing I'd change is to cut the recipes in half, using 450 g instead of 900 g of oil. Keeping batches small at first is a great way to avoid those costly mistakes you mentioned. Plus, you won't be swamped with too much soap while learning the process. Then you can start tweaking percentages, changing out oils and butters or additives to customize your own recipe.

BTW, I've tried the recipe from the old thread that penelopejane linked to, and it worked great as a soap. The numbers don't tell the whole story, for sure.

Good luck!

 

[NativeSoap]

Olive oil doesn't show up well in the soap calculator - it is actually very hard if you let it cure for 6 months or more. The calculator will show it as high conditioning.

I use soy wax GW415 at 20% of my recipe so that I don't have to use cocoa butter which is what I used to use (and found it too expensive). I also replaced half my OO with Rice Bran Oil because it's half the price of OO here. I understand that may not be the case in the USA though. It's important to note that soy wax is not actually a wax, it just hydrogenated soybean oil.

@KiwiMoose thank you! I'm learning so much in this one post alone!! Do you get your soy wax online? Are there any reputable sites you'd recommend for ordering that, if so? I didn't see it listed on the Soapers Choice website.

 

[KiwiMoose]

@KiwiMoose thank you! I'm learning so much in this one post alone!! Do you get your soy wax online? Are there any reputable sites you'd recommend for ordering that, if so? I didn't see it listed on the Soapers Choice website.

It's traditionally used for candles - so try a candle makers site. I'm in New Zealand so can't help from here : )

 

[KiwiMoose]

Here ya go.

 

[NativeSoap]

Here ya go.

Perfect, thank you! Way cheaper than the butters! I have heard that company mentioned a few times I believe.

 

[penelopejane]

@penelopejane , thanks for the recipe link. Since it's a shampoo bar, it would be pretty soft wouldn't it? According to the %'s I plugged in, here is what it looks like. Have you tried this recipe just as a normal hand/body wash? All the numbers seem low (except for "creamy", and the conditioning high. Again, I've not made soap yet, but just asking since these numbers seem opposite of other recipes I've looked at. Thanks for any further explanation.
View attachment 71548

As I said ignore the fact that it’s called “shampoo soap” and do NOT use it on your hair. It is a great hard bar of soap.

I don’t use soap calculator numbers because they do not work for olive oil and every soap I make has high amounts of olive oil. Try various recipes yourself And work out what suits your skin and cost expectations.

Cure olive oil soaps for at least 12 weeks before you come back and give your views. The longer the cure for olive oil soaps the better.

I got a jewelers scale to weigh out my ROE. It’s a tiny amount and I use it in all my oils except castor and coconut.

 

[NativeSoap]

As I said ignore the fact that it’s called “shampoo soap” and do NOT use it on your hair. It is a great hard bar of soap.

I don’t use soap calculator numbers because they do not work for olive oil and every soap I make has high amounts of olive oil. Try various recipes yourself And work out what suits your skin and cost expectations.

Cure olive oil soaps for at least 12 weeks before you come back and give your views. The longer the cure for olive oil soaps the better.

I got a jewelers scale to weigh out my ROE. It’s a tiny amount and I use it in all my oils except castor and coconut.

Do you blend it into your oil bottles, or is adding it and then just shaking the oil bottles, etc ok?

 

[cerelife]

Best price I've found for Coconut Oil and it soaps great! Free delivery for pick up at a local store.
https://www.dollartree.com/butcher-boy-refined-coconut-oil-725oz-jars/257945

 

[cerelife]

You can also make a 100% coconut oil soap with a 20% superfat that's not drying at all and makes a hard bar of really nice soap.