the mystery of the instant cure

[biarine]

When I make my HP soap and I am eager to try ( impatient), I will use a piece but it melt faster than if I will cure it for 4 to 6 weeks or more.

 

[MarlinFlake]

Is it possible that the stench is rancidity? I know you said there's no DOS, but if the soap already has a muddy yellow color, then how would you be able to tell? If her main ingredient is soy oil it seems reasonable to expect rancidity.

The way I see it there are two basic possibilities:
1) She is lying. If that's the case, then why stop at suspecting her of selling MP? If she's lying on her ingredients list then she could be lying about making a soap and delivering it same-day. Maybe she just had old soap laying around. Maybe she bought someone else's soap and resold it. The possibilities are unlimited.

2) She's not lying. With that ingredient list she could be doing CPOP, as others have pointed out. I'm pretty new at this, so experienced soapers can correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't hard soap with no zap but bad lather and skin-drying sound like a description of same-day CPOP? Her "proprietary method" might be as simple as CPOP followed by a couple hours in the freezer.

 

[Consuela]

... have we discovered if it is M&P?

I know that MP doesn't swirl the same as CP.... but I have friends who own a soap company, and their primary production is MP Soaps. And sometimes they get some REALLY nice swirl action..but I mean, that's what they do. Only MP... and I think if you're a damn good MP artist, you might be able to make soaps that look like CP?

 

[Jstar]

#1. I think she is lying somewhere.

#2. "Soybean oil, coconut oil, goat's milk, palm oil" You can make an almost 100% Coconut oil soap and it'll get hard as a rock in a matter of hours, no zap, and completely cuttable {in fact, you had BETTER cut it very very soon or you'll get a crumbly brick}...and it'll also be hard to lather and dry your skin.

My thoughts are, that she is using 50/50 or almost, 50/50 coconut and palm, and SF with soybean. {or thinks she's SF'ing with SB}

#3. I use soybean oil from time to time and thankfully I have not had DOS or rancidity 'yet'.. it doesn't affect my soap at all in a bad way, so I personally dont consider it a 'cheap filler'..some do..but it's whatever floats your boat I guess..LOL

 

[JBot]

I don't think it's MP. I put a piece in the microwave. It bubbled and smoked and stunk, but it didn't look anything like the MP I've used. The stink was really something. I had to turn my range hood fan on full blast to suck up the smoke, and then I took the bowl outside and left if there for a few hours.

It was odd. I've nuked my own (not MP) soap before, for just a few seconds, and it started to melt/bubble, but I didn't look or smell like THAT.

"Soybean oil, coconut oil, goat's milk, palm oil." If she's listing her ingredients from largest amount to smallest amount, then she can't be doing an almost 50/50 coconut/palm mix. But there's no reason to think she's labeling correctly, considering everything else she's saying/doing.

All I can think is that she's either CPOPing and freezing -- selling uncured soap, essentially --- or just lying about how quickly she can have her soap ready. The more experience I gain and the more reading I do, the less I believe that there is any such magical process.

 

[SoapyWater]

Can you cure soap in 24hrs. I've been making soap for about 15 years... the answer is no. No you can not cure soap in 24hrs.

Can you use it? Yes but I advise against it. Although the soap has harden on the outside but if you snap the soap in half it is very soft in the middle. This is because each oil used in the soap is still going through its curing state. Each oil has a different length of time to cure. Olive Oil takes the longest to cure in soap. All oils will be finished with the curing stage at about 4 - 6 weeks depending on your soap making process. Using soap too early can cause irritation to the skin due to active lye in the middle of the soap. It would be a softer soap, very little lather and the soap will dissolve very quick in water.

Now. After 24hrs yes you have soap. The saponification process has completed and you now have soap. That is all that you have. A good PH for your soap is about 8.5 however 10 is not bad.

There is no secret. Her secret is that she didn't have an answer so she made something up. The reason why the soap still smells like goat is because the milk is still curing. The scent with eventually fade away. I am certain she does not gel her soaps due to the goats milk. It would over heat and cause it to heat up and turn brown in the soap and smell very odd. When I make Coconut Milk soap I do not insulate my soap.

I am a deep discount soap maker. I use the bare minimum amount of water for my soap to cure at about 4 weeks. I do test my soap and if I feel that it needs to sit longer I will do so.

So yes.. no point of over thinking it. She is full of a lot of it.

 

[IrishLass]

The reason why the soap still smells like goat is because the milk is still curing.

According to JBot, though, the soap is many months old now, and she says it still smells just as bad as it did last summer when she bought it.

I am certain she does not gel her soaps due to the goats milk. It would over heat and cause it to heat up and turn brown in the soap and smell very odd. When I make Coconut Milk soap I do not insulate my soap.

I don't rule out the fact that this can happen with insulated milk soaps, but just wanted to interject that it's not a foregone conclusion that it will happen. I (and many others) have been able to achieve the 'impossible' of gelling milk soaps (even 100% milk soaps) without them turning brown or smelling by using the 'split method' of milk soaping.

There is no secret. Her secret is that she didn't have an answer so she made something up.

I do believe you hit the nail right on the head.


IrishLass

 

[Stacyspy]

Found this online

http://frugalfarmwife.com/article/diy-hot-process-soap/

I found this in my travels around the 'net. It seems to say the same thing...that once it's molded, it's good to go. I don't like to say much about folks that blog, but this seems irresponsible to me. She says it's so easy, doesn't seem to give any lye safety warnings, and for a 1 lb. recipe, she cooks it for an hour and a half, because she doesn't want to do a zap test. I mean no offense, but I don't believe this is an accurate article. So, it stands to reason that, if a person read this (or a similar) article, they would believe what was stated, and think this was the way to go.

 

[hmlove1218]

Oh my gosh, that infuriates me!! She tells them to simply use 6 ounces of liquid, 2 ounces of lye, and a pound of oil. No recipe guide, no mention of SAP values, no mention of a soap calculator.. Someone could get seriously hurt with that advice!

 

[Stacyspy]

Oh my gosh, that infuriates me!! She tells them to simply use 6 ounces of liquid, 2 ounces of lye, and a pound of oil. No recipe guide, no mention of SAP values, no mention of a soap calculator.. Someone could get seriously hurt with that advice!

And to mix the lye solution in the crock pot, then add the oils seems very dangerous also. I would worry about splashing, and wouldn't it compromise the crock after being in contact with the lye?

 

[SoapyWater]

According to JBot, though, the soap is many months old now, and she says it still smells just as bad as it did last summer when she bought it.
LOL well in that case she burned the milk during the process. She must have been impatient to wait... go figure! It will forever smell like burned mess lol

My question is since I don't milk goats myself... do you have to process the milk first before adding into the soap? Or is it just raw goats milk?


I don't rule out the fact that this can happen with insulated milk soaps, but just wanted to interject that it's not a foregone conclusion that it will happen. I (and many others) have been able to achieve the 'impossible' of gelling milk soaps (even 100% milk soaps) without them turning brown or smelling by using the 'split method' of milk soaping.

I can agree soap makers over the years have come up with some amazing processes. And I am sure that it can be done


I do believe you hit the nail right on the head.

That lady is too funny! I would love to meet her and chat! That would be interesting

 

[LBussy]

I firmly believe most soap benefits from a longer cure. That being said I'm not without experience using soap (shaving soap in this case) and I do have the ability to evaluate the soap critically by virtue of some experience. Some shavers are perfectly happy using "canned goo"; some have learned that wet shaving (what we broadly call using real soap and real razors) requires a little more careful attention to the software. Some courageous/idiotic people will take that further and use a straight razor. This is what separates the men from the boys, and the "artisanal" M&P shaving soap "makers" from the ones that really make a quality product.

I am one of those idiots sliding deadly instruments across my neck on a daily basis.

It takes no time at all to know if a shaving soap protects you or not. One pass of a straight razor across coarse stubble and tender skin gives you instant feedback - there's no wondering if it was ready or considering if it was drying or not. It takes a little bit longer to figure out why and much longer to figure out know to make a good soap knowing the first two answers. I am still somewhere in the middle of the second question after about a year trying.

All THAT to say I make shaving soap that works for me. Some other people have tried it and they like it. I know where I place it in relation to some of the commercial soaps, and to the soaps some of the people here make. I know I can make my soap and use it the next day with no burning or irritation. It is therefore not "irresponsible" to suggest that a soap may be used 24 hours later. It is in my experience truthful to say it will get better (declining returns) over time.

This is only true so far as I have tested it - with my process materials and recipe (which I freely share).

It is possible that the mechanics of using shave soap, the somewhat unique formulations, or the way it is removed, can impact the result. I do think however that I would have noticed if a 24 hour old soap was irritating my skin. I definitely *have* experienced that from new CP bar soap.

So do I think the person referred to in the OP is lying or uninformed? Yes. Do I think there's no way to make a soap that is perfectly acceptable in 24 hours? I disagree with that. It's not bar soap, it's not used for washing hands, it's not swirled or even remotely pretty, but it is possible to achieve acceptable results as I've lined out here.

 

[JBot]

I totally see what you're saying, Lee! My own HP is perfectly SAFE to use after 24 hours, often less; mine's just not very nice at that age. But since I've noticed that some of my batches are better (or less lousy) than others when they're fresh, I do think there is a range of quality among soaps that are safe/zap-free but still very new.

Still wouldn't sell mine at that stage, though. When I first started making HP I was perfectly happy using it right away. But once I experienced the difference after a good cure, I stopped using the new stuff. I still do a test-wash when I unmold it, and periodically while it's curing, but I won't use it routinely until it's at least 6 weeks old.

 

[Susie]

And to mix the lye solution in the crock pot, then add the oils seems very dangerous also. I would worry about splashing, and wouldn't it compromise the crock after being in contact with the lye?

No, lye does not hurt crock pots if they are properly glazed. I use mine to make liquid soap in regularly and use it to make NaOH soap in if I am making a larger batch. I don't use that crock pot for food simply because it is a very old one(1986) and the crock does not come out of the electrical base, so it is not as user friendly for food as the new one.

 

[LBussy]

I totally see what you're saying, Lee! My own HP is perfectly SAFE to use after 24 hours, often less; mine's just not very nice at that age. But since I've noticed that some of my batches are better (or less lousy) than others when they're fresh, I do think there is a range of quality among soaps that are safe/zap-free but still very new.

Still wouldn't sell mine at that stage, though. When I first started making HP I was perfectly happy using it right away. But once I experienced the difference after a good cure, I stopped using the new stuff. I still do a test-wash when I unmold it, and periodically while it's curing, but I won't use it routinely until it's at least 6 weeks old.

If I were selling soap, I would definitely adhere to a cure period. I wish there was a way to quantitatively determine the "cure" because I do believe there is a declining return on investment.

I have no issue giving away shave soap to friends after a couple weeks, or suggesting they let it sit that long. I also have no issue shaving with my soaps 24 hours later for a period of several weeks. Because of that I have an intimate feel for how it matures and behaves over time. Again, one application, one recipe, one very regimented process, one man, so YMMV and all that.

 

[Trix]

such I can't get this thread of my mind, and presuming she is telling the truth, is it possible she does her own melt and pour like this South African company does?

http:\\www.soapbarn.co.za/book-farmhouse.htm

In which case her ingredient list was not in the correct order. Of course such she runs it as a business (the lady referred to in the OP) one can also presume she'd have extra soap in any case in case something went wrong or an 'emergency' order was placed...

 

[LBussy]

such I can't get this thread of my mind, and presuming she is telling the truth, is it possible she does her own melt and pour like this South African company does?

Yeah they say:

• Our soap is chemical free – made only with coconut oil and clay.
• Our soap has no added chemicals and is SLES free.

Horsehockey!

 

[not_ally]

It is a little funny, we are preaching to the converted here. Ie; mostly a bunch of soap nuts who more or less agree with each other. I just hope people who are really truly new and have not done much research come here and are willing to get/accept good advice from those who have time under their belts and are are willing to offer it.

And not immediately start selling soap that will burn, um, private bits!

 

[LBussy]

And not immediately start selling soap that will burn, um, private bits!

 

[topofmurrayhill]

Oh my gosh, that infuriates me!! She tells them to simply use 6 ounces of liquid, 2 ounces of lye, and a pound of oil. No recipe guide, no mention of SAP values, no mention of a soap calculator.. Someone could get seriously hurt with that advice!

Let's remember that people have been making soap for many lifetimes before us snobby scientific types came along. Let's not attack less sophisticated approaches by pure reflex. These particular amounts that you highlighted are 100% safe. Nobody could possibly get seriously hurt using those amounts.