Sticky soap when washing off . Looking for help with recipe .

[user 58006]

I will check it out . I appreciate the the info .

How much shea would you recommend ?

 

[lucycat]

One of the confusions is the term superfat and lye discount. They both refer to the same idea and the words get used interchangably. That can add confusion when you are new. The link has great info.

Superfat was a concept that if we keep some oils reserved to add after trace they will be left in the soap not fully saponified. We now know the timing of lye doesn't mean that oils added later will be the ones left not fully saponified since saponification isn't complete at trace. So, older books use the term superfat and talk about reserving some oils to add after trace.

The current concept is lye discount. The difference in superfat is we admit we don't know what oils will be left not fully saponified and we quantify the adjustment to the lye calculation for the whole batch and start with all oils in the pot. That quantification makes it easier to use the same adjustement process for different size batches or different formulations.

Instead of using 100% of the lye needed to saponify the oils we use 92% up to 98%. Lye calculators usually have a default of 5% discount, using 95% of the lye. The bigger the discount the larger amount of oils are left not fully saponified. A small discount (more fully sponified soap) may give you a harder bar, better lather but may not be as easy on the skin. A high discount may feel good on the skin but may not have as much lather, can be softer and can sometimes be hard on the plumbing. Again, personal preference of the soap maker plus differences in their recipe formulation. You can experiment with a 3% discount, a 7% discount or 5% discount and see if you see a difference in your soap and which you prefer.

 

[AliOop]

The current concept is lye discount.

I would have to respectfully disagree. My experience is that lye discount is the older term, and SF is the more commonly used term by soapers today. All of the soap calculators that I've seen use the term "super fat" - and none of them use "lye discount."

 

[Zany_in_CO]

New to the forum and happy to be here.

Ive created lots of soaps. But trying to perfect this one base . ,,, I was hoping to see some recipes that refined with the same oils . And help with tweaking my recipe.

Olive oil pomace 38%
Coconut oil 76 23%
Palm oil 22%
Shea butter 14%
castor oil 3%
Super fat 5%

I use SoapCalc to analyze the Soap Qualities and Fatty Acids in the bar I'm formulating. Using the "Default Settings (5% SF)" for your recipe:

Judging from the values in your recipe, it looks perfectly fine to me. All values are within the recommended range.

Next I look at the Sat:Unsat Ratio, 43: 57 is within the 40: 60 - 50: 50 ratio.
Iodine Value (Indicates hardness) : 57 is very good although 50 is better.
INS Value: 150 is very good. INS Value of 160 is so-called "perfect soap" but there are good soap formulas that fall well below that number. Topic for another time.
Note: 5% SF is fine for most formulas. You can adjust up or down to your preference.
Note: Water as percent of oil weight is okay but 33% Lye Concentration is better.

Next I compared your recipe to the Basic Trinity of Oils starter formula, tweaked to include shea butter and castor oil and 33% lye Concentration

Your Recipe

BASIC TRINITY OF OILS TWEAK
30% Olive Oil Pomace - good
25% Coconut Oil 76° - good
30% Palm Oil - NOTE: Palm Oil Flakes are preferred for ease of use.
10% Shea Butter - Palm and Shea butter serve the same purpose. 40% of either could be use. I'm a big fan of shea butter (or lard) as a sub for palm oil.
5% Castor Oil - That's standard. Any more than that tends to make the bar "sticky".

I can't say this is much better than your recipe, but it might be if you want to try adjusting the %s, using 33% lye concentration and making a small 500 gram batch for testing. Your 5-week cure is reasonable, so that shouldn't be an issue, although "The longer the cure, the better the soap!" I would take lye and oil temps and soap at 120°-135°F (52°-58°C) for the best result.

Bottom Line: I'm stumped. I don't see anything that would cause the reaction you're getting from your testers. Something else must be amiss. How you process? Additives? Ambient temps? ETC. It's a real head-scratcher. Think about it. More info would be helpful.

HAPPY SOAPING!

 

[KiwiMoose]

I can see from your soap calculation Zany that 26% lye concentration might make the bars 'sticky'. There will be a lot of water in them and that will take longer to cure out. Your suggestion to use 33% lye concentration might improve the quality of the bar in less time than the OP has described.

 

[user 58006]

View attachment 71520


I use SoapCalc to analyze the Soap Qualities and Fatty Acids in the bar I'm formulating. Using the "Default Settings (5% SF)" for your recipe:
View attachment 71523
Judging from the values in your recipe, it looks perfectly fine to me. All values are within the recommended range.

Next I look at the Sat:Unsat Ratio, 43: 57 is within the 40: 60 - 50: 50 ratio.
Iodine Value (Indicates hardness) : 57 is very good although 50 is better.
INS Value: 150 is very good. INS Value of 160 is so-called "perfect soap" but there are good soap formulas that fall well below that number. Topic for another time.
Note: 5% SF is fine for most formulas. You can adjust up or down to your preference.
Note: Water as percent of oil weight is okay but 33% Lye Concentration is better.
View attachment 71524
Next I compared your recipe to the Basic Trinity of Oils starter formula, tweaked to include shea butter and castor oil and 33% lye Concentration

Your Recipe
View attachment 71525

BASIC TRINITY OF OILS TWEAK
30% Olive Oil Pomace - good
25% Coconut Oil 76° - good
30% Palm Oil - NOTE: Palm Oil Flakes are preferred for ease of use.
10% Shea Butter - Palm and Shea butter serve the same purpose. 40% of either could be use. I'm a big fan of shea butter (or lard) as a sub for palm oil.
5% Castor Oil - That's standard. Any more than that tends to make the bar "sticky".

View attachment 71526
I can't say this is much better than your recipe, but it might be if you want to try adjusting the %s, using 33% lye concentration and making a small 500 gram batch for testing. Your 5-week cure is reasonable, so that shouldn't be an issue, although "The longer the cure, the better the soap!" I would take lye and oil temps and soap at 120°-135°F (52°-58°C) for the best result.

Bottom Line: I'm stumped. I don't see anything that would cause the reaction you're getting from your testers. Something else must be amiss. How you process? Additives? Ambient temps? ETC. It's a real head-scratcher. Think about it. More info would be helpful.

HAPPY SOAPING!

Thank you I will check everything out

Im adding Kaolin Clay 1tsp and sea salt 1tsp 1300 g batch

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Your recipe has a fairly high percentage of palmitic versus stearic, which some think makes a bar a bit waxy feeling. I have testers that love that profile, but most seem to prefer a bar that has a better balance between the two. Is the shea unrefined? If so, the unsaponifiable fraction in the shea, which is ignored by the calculators, could be contributing to the sticky feeling. When I had sticky soaps in the past, a long cure (3 months or more) made a big difference in hand feel and overall performance.

 

[user 58006]

Your recipe has a fairly high percentage of palmitic versus stearic, which some think makes a bar a bit waxy feeling. I have testers that love that profile, but most seem to prefer a bar that has a better balance between the two. Is the shea unrefined? If so, the unsaponifiable fraction in the shea, which is ignored by the calculators, could be contributing to the sticky feeling. When I had sticky soaps in the past, a long cure (3 months or more) made a big difference in hand feel and overall performance.

I used organic shea refined . How do I balance palmitic versus stearic . Is there a better recipe ratio with the same ingredients ?

 

[dibbles]

Palm Oil Flakes are preferred for ease of use.

Zany, I've never seen palm oil flakes - is there such a thing? Although solid at room temperature, palm oil is pretty soft and scoopable. Palm kernel oil is available in flakes, but is more like coconut oil than palm.

 

[user 58006]

I used organic shea refined . How do I balance palmitic versus stearic . Is there a better recipe ratio with the same ingredients ?

 

[user 58006]

Thank you I will check everything ou

Thank you I will check everything out

Im adding Kaolin Clay 1tsp and sea salt 1tsp 1300 g batch

 

[user 58006]

Thank you I will check everything out

View attachment 71520


I use SoapCalc to analyze the Soap Qualities and Fatty Acids in the bar I'm formulating. Using the "Default Settings (5% SF)" for your recipe:
View attachment 71523
Judging from the values in your recipe, it looks perfectly fine to me. All values are within the recommended range.

Next I look at the Sat:Unsat Ratio, 43: 57 is within the 40: 60 - 50: 50 ratio.
Iodine Value (Indicates hardness) : 57 is very good although 50 is better.
INS Value: 150 is very good. INS Value of 160 is so-called "perfect soap" but there are good soap formulas that fall well below that number. Topic for another time.
Note: 5% SF is fine for most formulas. You can adjust up or down to your preference.
Note: Water as percent of oil weight is okay but 33% Lye Concentration is better.
View attachment 71524
Next I compared your recipe to the Basic Trinity of Oils starter formula, tweaked to include shea butter and castor oil and 33% lye Concentration

Your Recipe
View attachment 71525

BASIC TRINITY OF OILS TWEAK
30% Olive Oil Pomace - good
25% Coconut Oil 76° - good
30% Palm Oil - NOTE: Palm Oil Flakes are preferred for ease of use.
10% Shea Butter - Palm and Shea butter serve the same purpose. 40% of either could be use. I'm a big fan of shea butter (or lard) as a sub for palm oil.
5% Castor Oil - That's standard. Any more than that tends to make the bar "sticky".

View attachment 71526
I can't say this is much better than your recipe, but it might be if you want to try adjusting the %s, using 33% lye concentration and making a small 500 gram batch for testing. Your 5-week cure is reasonable, so that shouldn't be an issue, although "The longer the cure, the better the soap!" I would take lye and oil temps and soap at 120°-135°F (52°-58°C) for the best result.

Bottom Line: I'm stumped. I don't see anything that would cause the reaction you're getting from your testers. Something else must be amiss. How you process? Additives? Ambient temps? ETC. It's a real head-scratcher. Think about it. More info would be helpful.

HAPPY SOAPING!

If I wanted to add pine tar to recipe . How do you split the oils to add ?

 

[Mobjack Bay]

How do I balance palmitic versus stearic . Is there a better recipe ratio with the same ingredients ?

You would need to increase the percentage of shea, which has a lot of stearic. For my plant-based, palm-free recipe, I offset the cost of stearic-rich butters by adding soy wax (GW415), which is about 3:1 stearic to palmitic. I haven’t tried palm and soy in the same soap.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Zany, I've never seen palm oil flakes - is there such a thing? Although solid at room temperature, palm oil is pretty soft and scoopable. Palm kernel oil is available in flakes, but is more like coconut oil than palm.

Oopsie! You're correct! Good catch! I was thinking of PKO flakes from Soapers Choice. My bad. I corrected my mistake.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Im adding Kaolin Clay 1tsp and sea salt 1tsp 1300 g batch

At this stage, it's highly advised to make several 500g batches until you get your basic recipe "perfected".

You have been given options that need testing before you size up to 1300 grams.
One option is no clay then with clay.
Another option is no salt then with salt.
Another option is playing with stearic & palmitic FAs to find the right balance. Testing, testing, testing...

Pine tar soap is a topic for another thread. Once you've perfected your recipe, you can share the printout in the Recipe Feedback forum and ask for input about adding Pine Tar.

Patience, grasshopper.

 

[user 58006]

At this stage, it's highly advised to make several 500g batches until you get your basic recipe "perfected".

You have been given options that need testing before you size up to 1300 grams.
One option is no clay then with clay.
Another option is no salt then with salt.
Another option is playing with stearic & palmitic FAs to find the right balance. Testing, testing, testing...

Pine tar soap is a topic for another thread. Once you've perfected your recipe, you can share the printout in the Recipe Feedback forum and ask for input about adding Pine Tar.

Patience, grasshopper.

Okay sounds good . I appreciate all the help !

 

[Arimara]

I’m looking to have a faster curing soap . I want to wait a month or 6 weeks . My formula seems alright to you?

You might want to test this recipe as you have it with a 3 month cure. it might be that type of recipe. Since you say the soap it a little sticky, it could more than likely be the shea butter and the palm oil (they're both high in palmitic fatty acids and both can be sticky in feel, in my opinion). Maybe slightly decrease the palm oil and allocate it to the olive oil as an experiment? I'd honestly keep keep a few bars of this batch and test variations of this recipe to see what you like best.

 

[lucycat]

I would have to respectfully disagree. My experience is that lye discount is the older term, and SF is the more commonly used term by soapers today. All of the soap calculators that I've seen use the term "super fat" - and none of them use "lye discount."

My old books (Ann Bramson, 1975 and Susan Cavitch, 1995) use the term superfatted soap to refer to the addition after trace of oils that they thought would still be left in the soap and not saponified; ie too much oil for the amount of lye. Lye discount was not a term used at that time because lye was caluculated based on the oils to be mixed with lye/water before trace, not the superfatted oils added after trace.

Lye discount is the best description of what we do today; ie too little lye for the oil size of the recipe. Interchanging the terms may be current practice but it doesn't explain or make clear that we are doing is changing the lye calculation for 100% saponification to 93%/95% or 97% saponification.

When I started soaping I was taught to do my own lye calculations and I still keep current saponfication values for the oils I use in a spreadsheet for calculation. I use soap calc rarely and didn't realize it was using the term superfat.

 

[AliOop]

@lucycat I appreciate what you shared. It's impressive that you do your own lye calculations.

However, unlike you, the vast majority of modern soapers use soap calculators. I would venture to say that most folks who started soaping in the last five+ years have NEVER done a single lye calculation by hand. They all use lye calculators, and in fact, are encouraged to do that, rather than risk making a math error by manually calculating their lye.

None of the English language lye calculators use "lye discount" - they all use "super fat." Take a look at any popular YT channel that teaches soaping, or explains lye calculators - all that I have seen refer to super-fat. Maybe it is different for calculators or YouTubers in other languages? But in English-speaking countries, if you insist on talking about lye discounts, then you have to explain that it is called something else in the lye calculator and by most every other soaping instructor out there.

Bottom line, although "lye discount" may be a more accurate way to explain what we are doing, it is the far less common term, at least in the US and many other English-speaking countries. You would be fighting an uphill battle to get everyone to change their ways.

I have a similar pet peeve with the suggested cleansing range on soap calculators. It is ridiculous to suggest that low end of the recommended cleansing number is 12. That is at the higher end of the cleansing range for many, many soapers. When they were modifying SoapMakingFriend, I strongly encouraged them to set the low end of the recommended cleansing range at zero, since a zero-cleansing soap will still clean, and in fact, is recommended for many with skin sensitivities. But alas, my plea fell on deaf ears. It's hard to buck the system!

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Lye discount is the best description of what we do today; ie too little lye for the oil size of the recipe. Interchanging the terms may be current practice but it doesn't explain or make clear that we are doing is changing the lye calculation for 100% saponification to 93%/95% or 97% saponification.

I agree.

When I made my first soap in 2003 I also calculated the lye amount with pen & pencil. Once I joined a forum in 2004 I learned to use a calculator. At that time, it was called "SOOZ" and later became SoapCalc which I've been using for almost 20 years.

Also at that time, "lye discount" was used to describe what we now commonly refer to as "superfat". Back then, we used 0% lye discount and added 5% (more or less) of a superfatting ingredient at trace. Either way, the result is the same.

Source: @DeeAnna 's Soapy Stuff ~ Superfat

Your description of "lye discount" is the best explanation for those who want to understand the term "superfat". It's good to know both terms. Well done.