Solid Dish Detergent

[DeeAnna]

The Bioterge is a name brand version of generic C14-16 olefin sulfonate.

I've subbed polysorbate 80 for C14-16 and I'm sure CAPB would work too. PS80 and CAPB are probably not as bubbly as C14-16, but IMO these surfactants are included to add mildness, not bubbles, and also be a source of liquid in the recipe. The SCS will make plenty of bubbleage.

 

[dibbles]

The Bioterge is a name brand version of generic C14-16 olefin sulfonate.

I've subbed polysorbate 80 for C14-16 and I'm sure CAPB would work too. PS80 and CAPB are probably not as bubbly as C14-16, but IMO these surfactants are included to add mildness, not bubbles, and also be a source of liquid in the recipe. The SCS will make plenty of bubbleage.

Thank you DeeAnna. I have PS80 so will give that a try. Hopefully tomorrow.

 

[atiz]

Thank you DeeAnna. I have PS80 so will give that a try. Hopefully tomorrow.

I have done all 3 versions (with Bio-Terge, PS80 and CAPB) at different times. The Bio-Terge one is the most bubbly and I think (but it's hard to measure) it has more cleaning power as well. Maybe it has to do with the different charge and pH of the surfactants? Anyway, all of them work, just not quite the same.

 

[DeeAnna]

I agree the Bioterge/C14-16 version may be more bubbly and more cleaning. I'd be comfortable using either of the other two, however, especially for a trial run.

The recipe for shampoo bars that a kind soaper friend gave me also calls for C14-16, but I subbed PS80 in its place, since I didn't have the C14-16 at the time. I do now, and I need to make a new batch of 'poo bars. I'll be sure to compare.

 

[dibbles]

I have done all 3 versions (with Bio-Terge, PS80 and CAPB) at different times. The Bio-Terge one is the most bubbly and I think (but it's hard to measure) it has more cleaning power as well. Maybe it has to do with the different charge and pH of the surfactants? Anyway, all of them work, just not quite the same.

Thank you atiz.

 

[linne1gi]

I've made the Humblebee and Me version three times so far. I really like it as it's perfect for washing up just a few dishes.

 

[Soapymumma]

I'm a first time poster
I have made 4 of my own versions of a solid dishwashing block/paste. I'm happy with 3 out of 4. I have made Hubblebee and Me and the French/Canadian lady on You Tube (sorry just can't think of her name!) and I like them both for different reasons. I would prefer a more solid block though.
I found a solid block online that states it is incredibly hard. Looking at the ingredients I can't see what is making it so hard?? Does anyone here know how to decipher....?
Sodium Cocoate*, Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate*, Decyl Glucoside*, Quillaja Saponaria Extract**, Glycerin*, Aloe Vera, Purified Water, Sodium Carbonate
https://notoxlife.com/collections/zero-waste/products/zero-waste-dish-washing-block-single

Finally does anyone know if Sodium cocoate and Potassium cocoate can substitute for each other. I can only buy potassium cocoate in my country.
Thanks in advance. This is an awesome group )

 

[lsg]

This from Bramble Berry--"Potassium cocoate is a natural liquid surfactant made from coconut oil and glycerin. Use it to add bubbles to liquid soap, shampoo, and scrub."

Sodium cocoate sounds like it is soap made from coconut oil and lye.

 

[DeeAnna]

Sodium cocoate is soap made with coconut oil and NaOH. It makes a hard soap.

Potassium cocoate is soap made with coconut oil and KOH. It makes a soft soap.

The two will clean probably equally as well, but if you want a HARD soap, you will want to use sodium cocoate. If you don't mind a softer product, potassium cocoate is fine.

 

[lsg]

Well Duh! I must be losing my mind. If I know what Sodium Cocoate is, then it stands to reason potassium cocoate is soap made coconut oils and potassium hydroxide

 

[DeeAnna]

I have to translate these names too, @lsg. I never use "what comes out of the pot" method for my ingredient lists, so the "-oate" names for the finished soap always take a bit of head scratchin' for me to figure out.

 

[Soapymumma]

Thanks guys. Back to the drawing board for me

 

[IrishLass]

Thanks guys. Back to the drawing board for me

If you have access to sodium hydroxide (NaOH), I don't see why you couldn't just make this type of hard dish soap from scratch with coconut oil, sodium hydroxide, and the other ingredients listed.


IrishLass

 

[atiz]

If you have access to sodium hydroxide (NaOH), I don't see why you couldn't just make this type of hard dish soap from scratch with coconut oil, sodium hydroxide, and the other ingredients listed.


IrishLass

This may be a very basic question, but would you just add the surfactants to the CO soap batter? That sounds so strange to me for some reason. But otherwise I don't see how you get everything mixed...
I have been using the HB&M version of the detergent for a while now, and really love it.

 

[IrishLass]

This may be a very basic question, but would you just add the surfactants to the CO soap batter? That sounds so strange to me for some reason. But otherwise I don't see how you get everything mixed...
I have been using the HB&M version of the detergent for a while now, and really love it.

Disclaimer: I have never done this (yet), but the decyl glucoside is a liquid, so that particular surfactant should be easy to just add to the batter. SCI is more tricky....it is soluble in surfactants and only somewhat soluble in water...... I've read that it is commonly mixed with decyl glucoside in order for it to dissolve nicely (with a little applied heat and stirring), so if it were me, I would dissolve it in the decyl glucoside before adding it to the batter.

Kevin Devine of Divine Soaps has a couple of "Soaping with surfactants" videos where he added different surfactants to CP soap that may be of some help:






IrishLass

 

[atiz]

Disclaimer: I have never done this (yet), but the decyl glucoside is a liquid, so that particular surfactant should be easy to just add to the batter. SCI is more tricky....it is soluble in surfactants and only somewhat soluble in water...... I've read that it is commonly mixed with decyl glucoside in order for it to dissolve nicely (with a little applied heat and stirring), so if it were me, I would dissolve it in the decyl glucoside before adding it to the batter.

Kevin Devine of Divine Soaps has a couple of "Soaping with surfactants" videos where he added different surfactants to CP soap that may be of some help:






IrishLass

Very interesting, thank you @IrishLass! Yes, I have worked with both of the surfactants before, just never thought of mixing them into soap. SCI is pretty hard to dissolve; you have to heat it for quite some time, and when you take it off the heat it starts to crystallize quickly. So I guess you would have to work there pretty fast, hoping meanwhile that the soap batter doesn't seize....
Maybe some experiments are in order Thanks again for the videos.

 

[Soapymumma]

Thankyou both. For being curious and for the information. I feel confident to pull stuff out and start experimenting. I follow Kevin but hadn’t seen either video!
Much appreciated I’ll try and report back in time

 

[Saranac]

SCI is pretty hard to dissolve; you have to heat it for quite some time, and when you take it off the heat it starts to crystallize quickly. So I guess you would have to work there pretty fast, hoping meanwhile that the soap batter doesn't seize....

My favorite bar of CP soap (for personal use--not a dish soap) is a blend of soap and sodium cocoyl isethionate, and I don’t see why you couldn’t make a bar with coconut oil and SCI as your oil phase, and sodium carbonate added at trace. I make hybrid bars, and I make surfactant shampoo bars, but each process (for me) is very different with no excessive heat required when making soap with a finely ground SCI.

In my experience, the SCI that’s finely ground--like the SurfPro SCI* from Lotioncrafter--blends nicely into my fats and oils without a lot of heat (my hybrid bar is mostly lard, so I don’t like to overheat the fat and oils). I’ve used SCI at levels from 5 - 20% in varying batches with no problem. As long as I make sure to blend out the lumps, the resulting soap is smooth (i.e. no grittiness). For me, the key is to mix the SCI into a small amount of oil (or melted fat) rather than adding it to all of the oils. I use an amount of liquid oil or melted coconut oil that is equal to the amount of SCI to form a smooth paste with the surfactant before adding the rest of my fats and oils.


*The SurfPro SCI is about 55% sodium cocoyl isethionate; the balance is coconut fatty acid, so I take that into consideration when deciding on a discount rate for the NaOH.

 

[atiz]

My favorite bar of CP soap (for personal use--not a dish soap) is a blend of soap and sodium cocoyl isethionate, and I don’t see why you couldn’t make a bar with coconut oil and SCI as your oil phase, and sodium carbonate added at trace. I make hybrid bars, and I make surfactant shampoo bars, but each process (for me) is very different with no excessive heat required when making soap with a finely ground SCI.

In my experience, the SCI that’s finely ground--like the SurfPro SCI* from Lotioncrafter--blends nicely into my fats and oils without a lot of heat (my hybrid bar is mostly lard, so I don’t like to overheat the fat and oils). I’ve used SCI at levels from 5 - 20% in varying batches with no problem. As long as I make sure to blend out the lumps, the resulting soap is smooth (i.e. no grittiness). For me, the key is to mix the SCI into a small amount of oil (or melted fat) rather than adding it to all of the oils. I use an amount of liquid oil or melted coconut oil that is equal to the amount of SCI to form a smooth paste with the surfactant before adding the rest of my fats and oils.


*The SurfPro SCI is about 55% sodium cocoyl isethionate; the balance is coconut fatty acid, so I take that into consideration when deciding on a discount rate for the NaOH.

Thanks, this is very helpful.
I have never made anything hybrid (never even thought about it) just some regular syndet things (shampoo etc.) that I use SCI for. I think the SCI I have is the noodles, so probably that's why it's harder to dissolve; I usually dissolve it in coco betaine or something like that, and it does require heat. But I can see that oils would work well to mix it into and then soap as usual.
Will try it; thanks!

ETA: started a new thread about this; sorry for the hijack. Back to dishsoap.

 

[Soapymumma]

Update
I made a test batch with 10% sci (powder- I ground it in a coffee grinder), 10% decyl glucoside and added 2% sodium carbonate at trace.
I was able to Unmold at around the 4hr mark. It’s definitely a hard bar! I think it will work well on the sponge at the sink but I doubt you can run water over it to give bubbles to wash up. With the bumblebee and Le Fille De La Mere (Arriene) versions you can run under water nicely and use with sponge as well. Our family loves the bumblebee version performance buts it’s too soft. My husband goes through this stuff like crazy. He’s so heavy handed with it and loves lots of suds/bubbles. I’m hoping a solid bar would be better. The other one by Arriene is slimy in our water and doesn’t cut through grease as well but is a bit more solid and lasts longer. It’s fun experimenting though. Thanks for everyone’s input it has certainly helped I’m going to see what adding d-limonene does to these bars next.