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lpstephy85 said:
Woo I think I've finally got it. No instant zap from my tongue or the hubbies tongue. Glad I didn't have to use the borax. View attachment 11490 Now it is sitting in the hot water off the burner per Irishlass to clarify. Thanks all that helped!
Click to expand...

Hi, I know this from MY understanding, even when I THINK the soap is done, and I want to dilute it , before calling it ready to be diluted, I will first do a test, a clarity test. You need to take some paste out and dilute it with distilled water, and see if its cloudy or clear. If its super cloudy, like the mixture I see in the picture, it is not done and I NEED to continue cooking the paste, or RE Cook the paste. if it is Clear ofcourse, its done, but if it is slightly cloudy, that can be ok too. But from the picture, I think maybe your paste needed to cook a bit longer? Now, I am NOT the expert here, I do think I agree with the fact that you added extra oils, you could of superfatted it way to much, thus breaking down the lather. OR, it could of been that it simply needed to cook longer, or if it was done and cooled and you did the water clarity test, you might of needed to turn ON the heat again, heat it up and cook it for awhile. Just saying....Not sure if I am right, this is just from MY experience. Your picture looks like one of my Starter Liquid Soaps, from when I began soaping...so, that picture looks all to familiar to me. I could be wrong...this is my guess :) the fact that you dont have bubbles it surely could be the extra oils, or it could be the fact your soap past was not done. For ME...the Zap test is not the only thing that matters, I also compare the clarity test....just saying....thats how I do things.

So, just for reference, did you do a water clarity test before calling your paste done?
 
CookbookChef- I am not saying you are wrong, exactly. But there are more factors that affect clarity than the "doneness" of the paste. The amount of superfat will cause cloudiness, the oils used. Many, many more factors than whether the soap is "done" or not.

Zap testing only tests safety. No zap=safe. Zap=not safe yet.

I rarely(read never) cook my liquid soap pastes any more. I find CP to be much more efficient and less problematic than cooking the paste. And I still manage to get clear soaps without cooking it.
 
Susie said:
I am going to quote the exact sentence they used so folks understand exactly what they said.

"This was done by taking into account the water content that is always
present in KOH flakes and by verifying the sap values of our oils by
making single-oil liq. soap batches with each of our oils."

This is why we don't have to click a 90% purity box on that site like you do on Soapcalc. I still get consistently smaller amounts of KOH on SBM than SoapCalc with the 90% purity box checked.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Susie. I took the time today to dig into this further. To add to Susie's findings, I also saw this on the Summer Bee Meadow (SBM) calc's front page: "...Calculations take into account the typical impurities percentage found in NaOH and KOH supplies...."

So if I'm understanding all this, the SBM calc does not factor in a lye excess at zero superfat as I was thinking. Instead they're doing a correction for KOH purity. For a recipe created with the SBM calc at to zero superfat and using KOH that meets SBM's (unstated) purity, the result should theoretically be a soap with zero lye excess, zero fat excess. I wish they'd just come out and state the amount of correction they're using so people can make an informed decision.

***

Although I can't make that update to the SBM calc, I can reverse-engineer what they are doing, and here is what I found:

I entered the Carrie-Irish Lass LS recipe of 10% castor, 25% CO, and 65% olive into three soap recipe calcs -- SBM, Soapcalc, and my personal calc. I can easily change the lye purity in my calc, so it's possible for me to reconstruct another person's recipe and really understand what they're doing. When I compare results from my calc with the other two, I can replicate their numbers with only a small error.

Recipe:
Castor 10%
Coconut oil 25%
Olive 65%
Total wt of fats 1000 g
0% superfat

KOH (liquid) soap recipes:

SoapCalc:

KOH = 205.5 grams (or ounces) in my calc when I set KOH purity = 100%
KOH = 205.75 grams (or ounces) in SoapCalc, if the 90% purity box is NOT checked.
Conclusion: If you do NOT check the 90% box in Soapcalc, the answer for KOH is based on 100% purity.

KOH = 228.33 grams (or ounces) in my calc when I set KOH purity = 90%
KOH = 228.61 grams (or ounces) in SoapCalc, if the 90% purity box IS checked.
Conclusion: If you DO check the 90% box in Soapcalc, the answer for KOH is based on KOH purity = 90%. No surprise there, but it's a double check that results from my calc are similar to Soapcalc.

Summer Bee Meadow:

Using the same recipe in SBM at its unknown KOH purity, I got this answer: KOH = 218.8 ounces.
I then plugged different KOH purity values into my calc and adjusted the purity to get about the same 218.8 ounces of KOH.
When I got to KOH purity = 94%, my calc returned KOH = 218.62 ounces.
Conclusion: The SBM calc is based on a KOH purity = 94%. This result is true for both the SMB basic calc and the SBM advanced calc.

So, yes, SBM and Soapcalc are going to give different answers because they're based on distinctly different starting assumptions. There's more discrepancy between the two calcs from the % purity than from any variation in their sap values, at least for olive, castor, and CO. The variable results that people are seeing in their liquid soaping adventures is partly due to the two calc's quite different assumptions about KOH purity and because LS is so very sensitive to any variations in superfat.

My suggestion is to check the purity of your KOH as supplied and choose the calc that is based on the KOH purity closest to what you're actually using. And, if using Soapcalc, change the lye solution concentration to 25% OR change the water:lye ratio to 3:1, whichever you prefer. Either one means the same thing.

Essential Depot KOH: 90% purity
Source: http://www.essentialdepot.com/msds/

Lye Guy KOH: 96% purity
Source: http://www.thelyeguy.com/store.php


NaOH (bar) soap recipes:

Here are the results for SBM and Soapcalc using the same recipe shown above, just set for NaOH now:

SoapCalc: NaOH = 146.7 at Soapcalc's unknown purity setting
SBM: NaOH = 146.52 at SBM unknown purity setting
When I reverse engineered these results in my calc, I got NaOH = 146.47 at NaOH purity = 100%.

Conclusion: Both SBM and Soapcalc are based on an NaOH purity = 100%

Essential Depot NaOH: 95-96% purity
Lye Guy NaOH: 96% purity
Sources: See above in this post

Due to the hygroscopic nature of NaOH (absorbs water very easily from the air), the purity of NaOH drops with time. These calcs are basically building in a hidden superfat of at least 4% when using NaOH from common suppliers.

I hope this helps....

***

7 March 2015 update:

I checked several more online soap recipe calculators to find out what lye purity levels they were using. The attached PDF shows my findings. The summary is this:

All of the recipe calcs are set to about 100% purity for NaOH. This is building in a hidden superfat to almost all bar-soap recipes, since most NaOH that soapers use is not 100% pure.

Most of the calcs are set for 100% KOH purity as well, with three exceptions: SoapCalc (90% or 100%), Brambleberry (95%), and Summer Bee Meadow (94%).

My suggestion for making liquid soap is to check the purity of the KOH you are using and choose the calc that is based on the KOH purity closest to what you're actually using. By choosing the "wrong" calc for your KOH, you could end up with liquid soap that is lye heavy or fat heavy --

Example 1: You use Soapcalc set at 90%, set the superfat at 3%, and use 95% pure KOH. Your soap could have about 2% too much lye (lye heavy).

Example 2: You use a calc set for 100% KOH purity, set the superfat at 3%, and use 95% pure KOH. Your soap could have an actual superfat of 8%. This excess fat may make the liquid soap cloudy and may even separate from the soap after dilution.

If someone wants me to check a calc not on the list, please send me a PM (private message) and I will look into it.

***

9 June 2015 update

Sometimes your KOH purity may be quite different than what any of the calcs are based on. So another way to correct the KOH purity is to use the calc you like best and adjust the KOH weight to correct for the purity of the KOH you are using --

KOH you need = (KOH based on calc's purity) X (Calc's KOH purity) / (Actual KOH purity)

Example 3: You use SBM calc which is set for 94% purity. Your actual KOH is 85%. The calc says you need 145 g of KOH at the calc's default purity. The weight of KOH that you need at your actual purity of 85% is this:

KOH you need = (145 g) X 94 / 85 = 160 g

***

View attachment Dee on Lye purity for online calcs.pdf
 
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Made a "dummy" mistake today. I calculated how much FO I would need for 9oz of LS. I then got distracted by the hubby for awhile and then went back to my LS. Instead of double checking what I had wrote down I thought I had it in my head. I basically ended up with a little over 5% FO in my 9oz bottle of LS (if my math is right: I did .5oz FO). I didn't realize this though until I decided to test the soap on my face and my face started burning and getting irritated :( I went back to my notes and realized on one page I wrote down how much I was suppose to use and then on the next page I had written down what I did use. I still have a full mason jar of LS. Can I just pour out half of the bottled LS and replace it with half of the unscented to calm it down?
 
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DeeAnna - that makes perfect sense to me that SBM would come out to about a 94% purity assumption since they indicate that they take into account that KOH is not 100% pure AND they indicate (unfortunately not on the calculators home page but elsewhere in their website) that they calculate with a very small lye excess. I have always found the same results as you in comparing the three calculators (Soapcalc 100%, Soapcalc 90% and Summerbee Meadow) and SBM always comes out in the middle in calculating the KOH amount.

Since I get my KOH from The Lye Guy (96%) and use SBM with about a 1 - 2% superfat, I always get consistent results with no need to neutralize and no cloudy results when the appropriate oils are used.

Excellent explanation with examples - Bravo!
 
I wish both calcs gave the user the ability to choose the purity of their lye, rather than just force everyone into a narrow mold. We're using materials from so many different sources and we are located all over the world -- it's impossible that just one or two settings for purity will work for everyone, especially when talking about liquid soap that shows the effects much more dramatically than bar soap.

I understand a lot of people use ED KOH (90% purity), so I can see why Soapcalc gives 90% as an option. Unfortunately, Soapcalc set to 90% KOH can cause lye heavy batches if the KOH happens to have a higher purity (ex: Lye Guy KOH at 96%, which is what I use).

But the reverse is true for SBM -- I'm betting there are a lot of soapers who use ED KOH are finding their LS is breaking/separating due to being fat heavy, even though they used SBM calc properly.

Grrrr.... :problem:
 
Susie said:
CookbookChef- I am not saying you are wrong, exactly. But there are more factors that affect clarity than the "doneness" of the paste. The amount of superfat will cause cloudiness, the oils used. Many, many more factors than whether the soap is "done" or not.

Zap testing only tests safety. No zap=safe. Zap=not safe yet.

I rarely(read never) cook my liquid soap pastes any more. I find CP to be much more efficient and less problematic than cooking the paste. And I still manage to get clear soaps without cooking it.
Click to expand...

Yeppers Susie you and I are in agreement...I said those same words, just in a different way. Yes, Zap testing is for safety, I understand, and the whole maybe extra oils caused
​
the cloudiness, I said that too, and yes, as far as understanding that other kinds of oils can make the LS Cloudy, got that too. Yes, by trial and error, I now have made 22 Batches of LS...With the help of Hubby...so ya, gotcha on the same info, maybe I just stated it differently now. Yep, having fun and trying lots of experiments with the soap. But yes, I think its fantastic that we all share what knowledge we understand. I for one can understand IrishLasses way of Talking to me when I need instructions, where somebody else can say the same thing she did and come across to me in a confusing way. I am sure it is the same with with others. Somebody might understand ME better then you, or they might understand YOU better then me. Thats what is so wonderful about this forum, we are all helping each other with kind and helpful help. But ya, we are thinking alike on what you said. I just said it different. This is so much fun, and each batch Of Soap I make with Hubby we make it as if its our FIRST Batch so that we can continually fine tune our skills. We learned around batch 12 or 13 that getting cocky about our soap making only gets us into trouble. So now, we look at EACH batch as number one and are remaining eager to learn from others with a FRESH Mind when we show up on the forum. Ya, we are having a blast learning from all of you, and it feels good when we are starting to finally understand some of the information coming our way. Wow, were we GREEN behind the ears when we first arrived here!! Actually, STAYING Green is what is going to help us grow and continue to soak up all the information. If anyone is wondering why we have done so many batches, its because we have a very large family of well, family and also friends. Our circle is Eating it up....all this soap, they love it, and so do we. Thanks Susie for your Imput!!
 
Susie said:
I use ED KOH, and have no problems as long as I stick to 3% SF or less.
Click to expand...


Susie, I was using ED KOH as well and since I had lye heavy LS using SoapCalc and now will use SBM advanced, should I put in 100% KOH or 90% KOH when filling out the calc?
 
The SBM automatically adjusts for impurities in KOH. The SBM Advanced that I use only asks how much of the recipe will be KOH or NaOH. So, if you are making liquid soap without NaOH, you put 100% in the blank.
 
I ran the same tests on the advanced SBM calc that I did on the simpler version (see Post 323). It looks like the advanced SBM calc is using exactly the same settings for lye purity as the regular version -- KOH purity = 94% and NaOH purity = 100%.

For the 10% castor, 25% CO, 65% OO, 0% superfat example, I got KOH = 218.8 and NaOH = 146.5. These are the same answers as the regular calc provided.

I understand the advanced version offers the options of adding glycerin or alcohol and using a blend of KOH and NaOH, but I don't see a way to alter the lye purity settings or anything else that would alter the way the lye amounts are calculated.

Since I'm not super familiar with this version, I might be missing something however. ???
 
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I don't know if it is just me or what. But I did not want to use SBM Advanced, AT ALL! It looked confusing, and seemed unnecessarily complicated. I tried the regular SBM, and got much the same paste qualities as SoapCalc. Then I tried the SBM Advanced, and the paste was much easier to work with.

Going to check water amounts...Hmmm....same water amounts. Maybe it is just me. If so, I will be using SBM regular from now on.
 
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Well, I'll be! I've only ever used the Advanced version of the SBM calculator for my liquid soap because that's what was recommended to me by soapers on another forum. And since I have always had great success 100% of the time using that particular version of the calculator from the get-go with my liquid soap, I never even thought to use the regular version. But now that I've just typed in my usual 3-bees formula in on the regular SBM calculator and see that all the outputs are the same as what the advanced version gives me, I will just use and recommend the regular/simpler version from now on, unless people want to add other things or if they are using a combo of lyes, that is. Cool beans!

Hmmm, it makes me wonder if things were always this way, or if they may have changed things at some point? I guess I'll never know since I never used their regular calculator in the past to compare.


IrishLass :)
 
I did try it, as I was really trying to use solely grams as measurement of weight for all soaps. I did not like it. I am looking now for the printed recipe(s) from back then so I can see the notes.(This is what I get for outgrowing my binder.)

OK, here it is:

1-18-04 Liquid Soap(I have no idea where this recipe came from.)

CO 298g
OO 99 g
Castor oil 28 g
Jojoba oil 28 g

SF 3%

KOH 99 g
Water 172 g

Notes:

Paste too hard to cook to translucent. Added 30 g H2O x 3. Still stiff. UGH.
Diluted with 999 g H20.(Still chunky at 12 hours, but will resume in AM.)
Cloudy. Rechecked recipe x 2. Is oil at fault??

So, yep, not enough water. Glad they fixed that.
 
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I don't know either, Irish Lass. I've been using my own soap calc for about as long as I've been making soap, so I'm not too familiar with how the online calcs may have changed over time.

I check my calc against SoapCalc or SBM occasionally and have long been aware the online calcs handle lye purity differently than my calc, but I've not said too much about it until now. Soapers who make bar (NaOH) soap are selcom interested in this issue, because most bar soap is pretty forgiving of the extra "hidden" superfat that the online calcs build into bar-soap recipes.

Now that I've been making LS and following the troubles that people are having with their LS making, I realize the variations in KOH purity may be more critical to LS makers. I've been increasingly wondering about the troubles others are having with lye heavy or fat heavy LS. I'm beginning to think it's not always simple inexperience or ignorance that's causing these recurring troubles -- it might well be the calc being used that is also inadvertently steering these soapers off course. The calc needs to be matched better to the lye being used.
 

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