Soaping 101 liquid soapmaking video?

[Susie]

What are you wanting to do with the soap? If it is hand soap/shower soap, the superfat is too low. I would use 3%.

Why so many oils? I think for a first soap, I would use no more than 4. With more oils, you are complicating your process.

 

[DeeAnna]

Yep, I'd KISS it (Keep It Simple, Soaper!) for a first batch. I second Susie's recommendation to use 3% superfat if you're making a bath/body/hand soap.

 

[lpstephy85]

Thank you ladies for the suggestions. I think this should yield a better result

 

[Susie]

Much better! Should be great!

 

[IrishLass]

Hey Irishlass! Sorry to bother you once again, but whenever i hear so nice comments about your recipe,i want to give it another try..i made four batches using your recipe,but none looked good as yours in the pic..neither my stages go as mentioned by you.. i followed each and everything as guided by you..but i dont know what goes wrong.. as i stir my mixture,it turns into a white paste after sometime.. twice i cooked it till gel stage,but this time i left it as it is to see if it turns into Vaseline like itself..but nothing happened after around 12 hours..so i cooked that also till Vaseline-honey like..but when i used water at 75% of paste,it again got thick white..i added little more water and it turned dark amber colored liquid.. not much thick.. so i wonder if my oils are not good or may be i added more water..or my lye is not good? I used coconut oil that gets hard at low temperatures, pomace olive oil,and castor oil..my lye was 85% pure.. so i used this calculation- please check it -
For 500 grams i used
Castor oil-50g, coconut oil-125g, olive oil-325g, water-159g, glycerin-150g(total liquid-300g), lye-117g..
I got paste weight as 842 g, so i multiplied by 0.75, that gave 632 g water.. but it got thick,so i added 180 g more water..thats it. I wanna give it one more try

Hi Shaan!

Just wanted to clarify to one and all that I don't take any credit for the formula of 65% OO, 25% CO 10% castor. That honor belongs to Carrie Peterson (aka 3bees~1flower) who came up with it and graciously shared it on YouTube. Just thought I'd mention that since it keeps (mistakenly) getting attributed to me and I just want to give credit where credit is due.

Well, moving on- Shaan, could you write out the exact procedure of how you are going about it step by step? That would be so very helpful in helping me to help you troubleshoot.

You said you followed each and everything as guided by me....

In the beginning of this thread, I posted about using 100% glycerin in which to dissolve the KOH, and then much later on I experimented with dissolving the KOH in water first and then mixing it with the full amount of glycerin that I normally use- two different methods. From your water and glycerin amounts that you posted, it looks like you might be using my second, experimental method? I just want to clarify whether or not that is so. It will be very helpful to me to know for sure.

I looked over your recipe amounts and typed them into the calculator that I use for my liquid soaps (SummerbeeMeadow's Advanced lye calculator) and it shows me that your liquid amount is lower than it should be for your recipe amounts of oil and KOH if you were to have used the 3% superfat that I always use, which may be the cause of some of your problems. Liquid amounts are very important.

If you don't mind me asking, which lye calculator do you use? As I stated above, I myself always use Summerbee's Advanced calculator ( http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-cream-or-liquid-soaps ) because it gives me a higher, much more successful/workable liquid-to-KOH ratio than other calculators.

Also, I noticed you used pomace olive oil instead of regular olive oil. I've never used pomace myself, so that may or may not also be a factor, I don't know for sure. I always use regular olive oil (Kirkland brand from Costco).

Anyway, using the oil amounts that you posted (and making sure to account for pomace instead of regular olive oil), this is what SummerbeeMeadow's advanced calculator gave me for the KOH and liquid amounts if it were to be superfatted at my usual 3%:

KOH- 105g

Total Batch Liquid (i.e., just the 'up-front' amount of liquid it takes to make the paste. It does not include the dilution water)- 315g

In comparison, the KOH amount that you used was 117g- a difference of 12g more than I would use. And the total batch liquid you used to make the paste was 300g- a difference of 15g less than I would use.

If it were me, I would try making the recipe with same oil amounts you posted, but with 105g KOH and 315g total 'up-front' batch liquid (as glycerin) instead.


IrishLass

 

[Dahila]

I just tried to make a LS, doing it with Irishlass way. I had a lot of bubbles but not as much as you wrote it. Well it is staying in the pot and I will see what happen next. I probably leave it overnight. I am not sure I did it correctly, I could not tell which trace is good, does it look like thick CP soap trace?

 

[Susie]

No, liquid soap trace is a paste consistency. If the stick blender can't mix it, it is trace.

 

[Dahila]

oh so maybe I should mix it longer. It is two hours, already can I mix it more, right now Susie?
Nope I checked and it very thick opaque paste, no way to mix it. Still lye heavy

 

[Susie]

If it is paste, it has traced. Something has gone wrong with either your recipe or process. It may be non-zappy in the morning.

Can you post specifically what oils and how much of each in grams or ounces. How much water, and how much KOH in grams or ounces also. Also any additives such as fragrances, milks, etc.

Then go over each step you did.

I know you said it is just like IrishLass's, but something has gone haywire, and the only way I know to help is to see the recipe spelled out from start to finish.

 

[Dahila]

65% OO, 25% CO, 10% Castro Oil, glycerine 650 g, KOH 221 g, Superfat 3%, 25% Lye concentration. It is paste but is not transculent and still pink with the using of Phenolphthalein 1% Solution. I will check it again in the morning. Maybe I am checking it not the right way. I just had read in Failor book that is should be small amount dissolved in water then checked with drops. Thank you Susie for answering. Maybe you can figure it out somehow
I will post the ounces too
OO 22.93 oz
CO 8.82 oz
Castor 3.53 oz
KOH 7.82 oz
glycerine 23.47 oz

1. in pot room temperature glycerine mix into koh , the other way areound I added koh to glycerine and brought it to boil , on medium heat it took about 20 minutes to dissolve it.
then I poured it to the oils they were warm and started to mix. It went to emulsion, then thick emulsion then clear amber color, then I got a lot of bubbles, however not as many as Irishlass. I still mixed till I got the trace, thick trace and was getting translucent color . I covered the pot and left it alone. I will wait till morning and see what happens. I will post the findings

 

[CookbookChef]

"That Borax made it thick...it made it so thick that their is no way that I could do 75% water. hhhhhmmmm, so, for me I am thinking anytime I have super thin soap, maybe just a touch of Borax would help it thicken up."

In Catherine Failor's book "Making Natural Liquid Soaps" she discusses the use of borax at length. To quote her, "Borax is the 'silver bullet' of liquid soapmaking. It enhances and stabilizes foam, softens hard water, buffers pH, and acts as a preservative. Borax is also invaluable for creating more concentrated soap solutions because of it's ability to both emulsify and thicken."

I know she uses borax primarily as a neutralizer because she did all her wonderful work before online lye calculators were available, so her recipes are lye heavy. It also allows you to play a bit with dilution percentages. I also know many people don't like to use borax due to a skin sensitivity or just personal preference. It's also banned in the EU so that's a consideration. Personally, I use it when I want to because it doesn't bother my skin or my husband's. It also has the benefit of a pH that's 9.2 so it won't over-neutralize your soap. Borax is a topic that's a bit controversial and it's use is personal choice to each soap maker.

I'm really glad you sorted out your lye heavy soap in the end, CookbookChef! Every time I have a problem like that, I look at it as a huge learning experience. I certainly have a lot of learning experiences in my life, lol!

Thank you so very much for your information about Borax...Maybe that is why I see some Nameless Famouse LS using Citric Acid as this is an item that is widely accepted by the general population. Thanks Kristay!!!!

 

[CookbookChef]

Another thing to keep in mind is that borax will not thicken all diluted liquid soaps equally. If your soap has a high proportion of coconut oil or PKO, borax may not thicken the soap at all.

Good To Know DeeAnna about the Borax and Coconut Oil...yes, this info DOES help me indeed

 

[Susie]

65% OO, 25% CO, 10% Castro Oil, glycerine 650 g, KOH 221 g, Superfat 3%, 25% Lye concentration. It is paste but is not transculent and still pink with the using of Phenolphthalein 1% Solution. I will check it again in the morning. Maybe I am checking it not the right way. I just had read in Failor book that is should be small amount dissolved in water then checked with drops. Thank you Susie for answering. Maybe you can figure it out somehow
I will post the ounces too
OO 22.93 oz
CO 8.82 oz
Castor 3.53 oz
KOH 7.82 oz
glycerine 23.47 oz

1. in pot room temperature glycerine mix into koh , the other way areound I added koh to glycerine and brought it to boil , on medium heat it took about 20 minutes to dissolve it.
then I poured it to the oils they were warm and started to mix. It went to emulsion, then thick emulsion then clear amber color, then I got a lot of bubbles, however not as many as Irishlass. I still mixed till I got the trace, thick trace and was getting translucent color . I covered the pot and left it alone. I will wait till morning and see what happens. I will post the findings

That looks fine to me. I ran it through 2 calculators, and you are within the range of them. Although if you did use SBM Advanced, it says you are at -2% superfat, SoapCalc says you are around 2% superfat. I know it seems crazy, but this is why I use one calculator for bar soaps, and one for liquid. I simply like the liquid soap better on the SBM.

You did get bubbles. That is important. You got thick paste, and transluscent color. That is also important. I do not use phenolpthalein. I zap test. If I were you, I would zap test it in the morning. Should be fine.

If it is still zappy, put your paste back into the crock pot on low and add oil(either CO or OO) a teaspoon at the time, stirring and heating for at least half an hour between additions until it stops zapping.

If you don't mind using borax, you can add 6 oz boiling water to 3 oz borax in a separate container, and stir until dissolved. Add that to your hot paste a teaspoon at the time and wait half an hour between additions.

If you prefer citric acid, I am going to have to beg DeeAnna or someone with more experience neutralizing to step in and help, as I have never used it, and would hate to steer you wrong.

 

[lpstephy85]

Might have been here and I might not remember or missed it but with LS, does it matter if there is solid oils or not in the recipe? Is this a stupid question?

 

[Dahila]

Coconut is solid oil and it is in recipe. Morning, the paste still turns ugly pink but when I tried the tongue it does not zap, How it is possible? I gave my crock pot to my daughter so do not have it, but I could do actually in two pots.
My hubby tasted too NO zap. I am diluting now.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...does it matter if there is solid oils or not in the recipe? Is this a stupid question?..."

I just saw this tongue in cheek comment a few days ago -- "There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers." :wtf:

For LS, having solid fats in the recipe is not so important from a processing standpoint. The point of having some solid oils in a bar soap is the soap will be firmer at unmolding and also the batter will reach trace faster. In LS, the first doesn't apply. The second is an issue, but you can easily compensate for slow trace by making the lye solution using all or part glycerin and/or soaping with added heat (crock pot, oven, stove top, etc.)

As far as the properties of cleansing, longevity, mildness, etc. that solid fats bring to a liquid soap -- I'm still learning about that, so take my words with a grain of salt.

From what I'm seeing, many LS recipes don't use the usual lard, palm, or tallow -- the firm fats that add longevity and hardness to a bar soap. LS recipes are more likely to have just brittle fats (coconut oil, PKO, etc) that add bubbles and high cleansing and liquid oils (olive, castor, soy, etc) that add mildness and lather.

I think this avoidance of the firm fats is because the high % of stearic and palmitic acids in these fats can make a LS cloudy or opaque. The traditional preference appears to be for a clear LS. If you don't mind cloudiness, however, the firm fats are fine.

I think Susie has used lard or tallow in some of her LS recipes -- hopefully she can give her perspective.

"...the paste still turns ugly pink but when I tried the tongue it does not zap, How it is possible?..."

Because phenolphthalein turns pink at or above a pH of 8.2 in a dilute water solution. If the natural pH of the soap is higher than that -- and it often is -- then the phenol-p test that most soapers do will show pink. Like Susie, I zap test. I have phenol-p and use it once in awhile just for grins, but I don't take it seriously at all. I don't see the point in hyperventilating about a soap pH that is perfectly safe and normal -- the pH of most soap ranges from 9 to 11.

"...If you prefer citric acid, I am going to have to beg DeeAnna or someone with more experience neutralizing to step in and help..."

No begging required, Susie -- I look up to you as my LS making mentor!

As far as using citric acid to neutralize excess lye, I honestly would avoid it. Most soaps are not so lye heavy that citric makes any sense. Instead, I'd use Susie's suggestion to add a bit of fat or borax. Only tiny amounts of citric will lower the pH a LOT, so it is far too easy to add too much and ruin the soap. The soapers on another LS group that I read are forever "breaking" their soaps as they fuss around with citric acid -- they invariably lower the pH too far.

 

[lpstephy85]

You always amaze me DeeAnna! Going from doing nothing but bar soap and shifting gears to LS has my brain all a tumble so I wasn't sure if my thought process was on track. I had the same thought that yeah solid oils are needed to bar soap but really what does it bring to LS? I was thinking in my recipe I posted a few posts back of swapping out the CO for frac. CO as I wanted to keep my LS as a clear as possible. Does anyone see an issue with that?

 

[Susie]

Lard gives a cloudy liquid soap when diluted that unfortunately does not stay cloudy. The solids fall out over time or with dilution. Makes good paste for Soap2Go, though.

You don't need fractionated CO for clear soap. 76 degree works fine. Soap, in my experience, is most often cloudy from one or more of the following causes: superfat over 3%, jojoba oil, lard or tallow. I may add to that list, but that is my list thus far. If you save your paste for a while, be sure to not just use the top diluted by itself. It will often turn cloudy on you. My theory is that the superfat migrates to the top.

Dahlia- that is why I decided that the zap test is my sole safe/not safe determination. Every other method leaves too much to chance. Zap is not complicated. It either does or does not. And once I have zap tested soap, I feel safe giving it to others.

 

[IrishLass]

Because phenolphthalein turns pink at or above a pH of 8.2 in a dilute water solution. If the natural pH of the soap is higher than that -- and it often is -- then the phenol-p test that most soapers do will show pink. Like Susie, I zap test. I have phenol-p and use it once in awhile just for grins, but I don't take it seriously at all. I don't see the point in hyperventilating about a soap pH that is perfectly safe and normal -- the pH of most soap ranges from 9 to 11.

Thank you for that^^^^! I must confess that one of my biggest pet peeves are the many liquid soapmakers on YouTube and the interwebs that (most likely unknowingly) perpetuate the (faulty) idea that one can test their paste by merely dropping a few drops of phenolphthalein on a naked glob of it, but that's not even the way to properly use phenol-p. But even if one does use it properly, the fact that phenol-p turns varying shades of pink to fuschia from a pH range of 8.2 to 12 and then goes colorless again at pH 13, show it to be not the best thing to test lye-based soap for active lye. I use the tongue-test on mine for that instead, too.

I had the same thought that yeah solid oils are needed to bar soap but really what does it bring to LS?

Beautiful, pearly opacity ....if you're into opaque, creamy/pearly-looking liquid soap, that is, which, as it happens to be, I am! Although I like my clear liquid soap, too, my most favorite is the liquid soap that I make with cocoa butter, shea butter and stearic acid added to the mix. My family and friends go nuts over it, too. It feels quite luxurious.

IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Thank you for that^^^^! I must confess that one of my biggest pet peeves are the many liquid soapmakers on YouTube and the interwebs that (most likely unknowingly) perpetuate the (faulty) idea that one can test their paste by merely dropping a few drops of phenolphthalein on a naked glob of it, but that's not even the way to properly use phenol-p...."

Yes -- so true! FaceBook liquid soapers are also working hard to keep the phenol-p myth alive, at the cost of ruining a fair number of perfectly fine batches of LS and discouraging people from making LS. But it's not going to cause bodily harm or major disaster, so I pretty much keep my mouth shut on the matter anymore. Thank goodness most folks on SMF aren't too hooked on this.

Now, if someone tries to perpetuate the myth of using vinegar to deal with a lye spill on the body, I do speak up. For those who might be wondering, the correct answer is this:

Never, never use vinegar if you get lye on your body. Rinse with running WATER ONLY, ideally for 10-15 minutes. Preferably clean and cool, but if all you have is a mud puddle ... USE IT. And if the burn is on your face, especially near the mouth, nose or eyes, or if the burn is deep or large ... get to a doctor for followup treatment. This is a serious chemical burn and nothing to blow off.

I'm off my soapbox! Back to the topic at hand. :razz: