Soap Dough Techniques
- Thread starter TashaBird
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Add a bit of blue to it. I'm not sure why this works, I'm not gifted at colors at all, but adding a small amount of blue to black will help darken the black. Use the darkest blue that you have.
Can dyes be used in soap dough? This is what NS says "Cold Process Soap: Dyes are not recommended for CP soap. They tend to morph, migrate into other colors, and bleed." I'm not getting great color with the micas without going through gel phase. Maybe I just have to add more mica?
Thread is due for a bumparino.
I'm going to experiment with soap dough in a few weeks and have a few questions:
Can I use a single oil/fat?
Are there specific ratios that are required (lye/water, etc)
Are there any particular ingredients that are either necessary (maybe highly recommended) or to be avoided?
I want to make single fat soap dough to make small experimental batches of shave soap by combining individual doughs in combinations to compare. Example: tallow/RBO/stearic acid vs. tallow/sunflower oil/stearic acid.
I'm going to experiment with soap dough in a few weeks and have a few questions:
Can I use a single oil/fat?
Are there specific ratios that are required (lye/water, etc)
Are there any particular ingredients that are either necessary (maybe highly recommended) or to be avoided?
I want to make single fat soap dough to make small experimental batches of shave soap by combining individual doughs in combinations to compare. Example: tallow/RBO/stearic acid vs. tallow/sunflower oil/stearic acid.
The soap dough I make is mostly for creating embeds in loaves of body soap. So, I’m not sure how that compares to what you’re doing with shave soap. I haven’t heard of shave soap being made from soap dough.
Thanks Tasha, yes I have come across a looooot of that in YouTube. Basically the idea is to build a "collection" of single fat soap doughs to combine later in my mini crockpot to see how they perform. I'm noticing a most (all?) soap dough videos and articles focus on the artistic side. Maybe I've found my own little niche to experiment and make mistakes for others to learn from. It's way more boring than the creations you guys have come up with here so I'm not surprised heh.
Bubble Agent
Well-Known Member
This may not be to any help regarding single fats soap dough experiments @Johnez !
But since you make shave soaps I just wanted to mention real quick that there is no problem making soap dough out of shaving soap, if you should wish to experiment with that. I know you have made some batches and wanted to venture in making them smaller so you don`t have a gazillion shaving soaps lying around during your testing. If you have some that is just sitting there, you can take them out and experiment with them as soapdough if you used dual lye and/or they are still soft`ish.
I know what you must think, no way it would just be way to sticky for a soap dough.
I have done this several times, and since shaving soap with dual lye can be very sticky (also depending on ammount of KOH) I have found a solution that works for me at least.
I actually use the very same technique for sticky soapdough, as I do making special marzipan decorations for my marzipan cakes.
Usually when soap dough is too sticky I just use a bit of potato starch during molding and handling, which keeps it pliable without sticking to my fingers. I do that when making roses and other flowers or figurines to go on my marzipan cakes. Others use powdered sugar, but I have never done that, I find it getting the marzipan way too sweet, and it sweats more easily too.
Edit: I just want to say that depending on the degree of stickiness, the ammounts of potato starch may vary. Also, corn starch will work just as well.
Btw - I just want to mention that I have never made soap dough for soap dough sake. I actually didn`t even know soap dough was a real ‘thing’ until very recently. I have made things out of soft soap since I started. In the 90`s I used to make a lot of things out of a model clay that is called Fimo (I don`t know it is called that in English?)
I made key chains and figurines, heads of people with strange features, and things like that. So when I discovered soapmaking I found out that if the ends of the loaves were soft I could just cut them off and knead them the same way I did Fimo or marzipan, and make things out of them and let them air dry. And I have done it even since.
I just keep end pieces or scraps of the soap pliable and wrapped in plastic bag and keep them in a lunchbox with lid.
(well, if I can find one! Don`t get me started on missing lids.. I suspect they escape through some sort of wormhole and end up on a planet turned into a habitat of missing socks, plastic lids, safety pins and buttons.)
Some end pieces I don`t do much to, I just squish them and press into a mooncake mold along with beveled scraps, and make small soaps for myself.
I have some ‘dough’ right now that are around 7 months old, and still pliable but tiny bit harder. I can just knead them and warm them up in my hands and they become soft again. It is made out of a no fuss recipe with 50% lard, 25% coconut, and rest is olive and rapeseed + 5% castor.
If you are worried about spoilage because of the starch, I have some embeds that i made in 2017 and kept them because I wanted to see if anything happened because of the potato starch. They are solid, no dos, no spoilage, and they lather without issues. They don`t smell bad and look just fine, just a bit faded in color as they were already pastel. Some where greyish/black as I made a grey and black soap. I can dig them up from my stash and take a picture of them when I get some time, if someone is interested...
But since you make shave soaps I just wanted to mention real quick that there is no problem making soap dough out of shaving soap, if you should wish to experiment with that. I know you have made some batches and wanted to venture in making them smaller so you don`t have a gazillion shaving soaps lying around during your testing. If you have some that is just sitting there, you can take them out and experiment with them as soapdough if you used dual lye and/or they are still soft`ish.
I know what you must think, no way it would just be way to sticky for a soap dough.
I have done this several times, and since shaving soap with dual lye can be very sticky (also depending on ammount of KOH) I have found a solution that works for me at least.
I actually use the very same technique for sticky soapdough, as I do making special marzipan decorations for my marzipan cakes.
Usually when soap dough is too sticky I just use a bit of potato starch during molding and handling, which keeps it pliable without sticking to my fingers. I do that when making roses and other flowers or figurines to go on my marzipan cakes. Others use powdered sugar, but I have never done that, I find it getting the marzipan way too sweet, and it sweats more easily too.
Edit: I just want to say that depending on the degree of stickiness, the ammounts of potato starch may vary. Also, corn starch will work just as well.
Btw - I just want to mention that I have never made soap dough for soap dough sake. I actually didn`t even know soap dough was a real ‘thing’ until very recently. I have made things out of soft soap since I started. In the 90`s I used to make a lot of things out of a model clay that is called Fimo (I don`t know it is called that in English?)
I made key chains and figurines, heads of people with strange features, and things like that. So when I discovered soapmaking I found out that if the ends of the loaves were soft I could just cut them off and knead them the same way I did Fimo or marzipan, and make things out of them and let them air dry. And I have done it even since.
I just keep end pieces or scraps of the soap pliable and wrapped in plastic bag and keep them in a lunchbox with lid.
(well, if I can find one! Don`t get me started on missing lids.. I suspect they escape through some sort of wormhole and end up on a planet turned into a habitat of missing socks, plastic lids, safety pins and buttons.)
Some end pieces I don`t do much to, I just squish them and press into a mooncake mold along with beveled scraps, and make small soaps for myself.
I have some ‘dough’ right now that are around 7 months old, and still pliable but tiny bit harder. I can just knead them and warm them up in my hands and they become soft again. It is made out of a no fuss recipe with 50% lard, 25% coconut, and rest is olive and rapeseed + 5% castor.
If you are worried about spoilage because of the starch, I have some embeds that i made in 2017 and kept them because I wanted to see if anything happened because of the potato starch. They are solid, no dos, no spoilage, and they lather without issues. They don`t smell bad and look just fine, just a bit faded in color as they were already pastel. Some where greyish/black as I made a grey and black soap. I can dig them up from my stash and take a picture of them when I get some time, if someone is interested...
Quite a post, and yes you've anticipated my main worry which I didn't mention as I honestly didn't want to load down my original post with too many questions lol! Using 100% KOH soap recipes currently yields a very pliable, but sticky soap, even without airtight sealing, so maybe this is way less involved and complicated than I thought. I'll have to give potato starch a try.
I’ve had people ask me for shaving soap. So I’m excited to learn about using soap dough that way! Pleas
Bubble Agent
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I know it was a long read, lol, but I wanted to be thorough and not leave you hanging with a lot of unanswered questions in my reply
If you can`t get a hold of potato starch, as mentioned, corn starch will yield the same results. It is true starch in the end. It seems we use more potato starch than corn starch here in Norway, because we grow huge ammounts of potatoes like other countries grow corn. But our climate is to cold for corn.
Just don`t use real flour of any kind, it will turn things gummy. Btw, you can also use Arrow root starch.
Paging @ResolvableOwl ...
Sorry, I know it was a long read, lol, but I wanted to be thorough and not leave you hanging with a lot of unanswered questions in my reply
If you can`t get a hold of potato starch, as mentioned, corn starch will yield the same results. It is true starch in the end. It seems we use more potato starch than corn starch here in Norway, because we grow huge ammounts of potatoes like other countries grow corn. But our climate is to cold for corn.
Just don`t use real flour of any kind, it will turn things gummy. Btw, you can also use Arrow root starch.
Oh don't be sorry, I'm very appreciative! There's only so many hours I have and things I can try on my own so every little bit helps.
ResolvableOwl
Notorious Lyear
Appealing idea! I did something similar to liquid soap where blending is easy for obvious reasons, but the final results aren't that variable there (ETA: lol, I just noticed that I even referenced you over there!). Roughly related (but exchanging just a few late % of oils) was my soap dough sandbox.
I'm not clear if I understood you correctly. Would you make one single soap dough from tallow/RBO/stearic acid blend, and then one from tallow/sunflower oil/stearic acid? Or rather one tallow, one RBO, one stearic acid, one sunflower, and so on?
With that full reductionsim, I see some issues, though, that the vastly different properties of the oils would lead to soap doughs that won't “fit together” easily. Soft oils are no issue, coconut is probably marginal, but with hard oils, stearic acid in particular, I don't see how you could get a halfways decent soap dough out of it, even with mostly KOH. Alkali stearates in high concentration are just unbearably stubborn.
Maybe @Bubble Agent's sous-vide idea is of some use here (makes kneading the whole batch easier), but I have worked enough with soaps of high-stearic oils that I would avoid them in practical use if possible. (High water content might help out a bit, but then you're having a hard time comparing & combining the specific soaps)
@Tara_H Nerd sniping
The bat signal (or should I say-"owl signal") has worked, thank you Tara_H!Appealing idea! I did something similar to liquid soap where blending is easy for obvious reasons, but the final results aren't that variable there (ETA: lol, I just noticed that I even referenced you over there!). Roughly related (but exchanging just a few late % of oils) was my soap dough sandbox.
I'm not clear if I understood you correctly. Would you make one single soap dough from tallow/RBO/stearic acid blend, and then one from tallow/sunflower oil/stearic acid? Or rather one tallow, one RBO, one stearic acid, one sunflower, and so on?
With that full reductionsim, I see some issues, though, that the vastly different properties of the oils would lead to soap doughs that won't “fit together” easily. Soft oils are no issue, coconut is probably marginal, but with hard oils, stearic acid in particular, I don't see how you could get a halfways decent soap dough out of it, even with mostly KOH. Alkali stearates in high concentration are just unbearably stubborn.
Maybe @Bubble Agent's sous-vide idea is of some use here (makes kneading the whole batch easier), but I have worked enough with soaps of high-stearic oils that I would avoid them in practical use if possible. (High water content might help out a bit, but then you're having a hard time comparing & combining the specific soaps)
@Tara_H Nerd sniping
I would be making soap doughs with single fats. An RBO soap dough, a tallow soap dough, and a SA soap dough to be combined later. I was thinking the addition of heat+water would make the process doable, as the shaving soaps themselves are really soft as well. SA is the sticky wicket of course. :-( I will try this first as I have no reason to even proceed if I can't get SA to behave. Sous vide has the extra benefit of being the neatest of the methods I can even think of, I hope it works for SA.
ResolvableOwl
Notorious Lyear
The one upside (if it really is) with stearic acid is that it's chemically not a fat, but a free fatty acid, so the reaction doesn't take an hour or a day, but mere seconds. It's the one you could in theory do in a pot on the stovetop.
ETA: which brings me to my next point: glycerol. A good part of the glycerol in the recipe is to offset the amount that is “missing” by using FFA instead of triglycerides. And soap + glycerol = M&P base, i. e. high glycerol concentrations are a true lifesaver when working with highly saturated soaps!
This also means that you 1. have to keep track of which batch has which amount of glycerol in it, and 2. (0.?) you have to think how to distribute the glycerol across your reductionist soaps.
ETA: which brings me to my next point: glycerol. A good part of the glycerol in the recipe is to offset the amount that is “missing” by using FFA instead of triglycerides. And soap + glycerol = M&P base, i. e. high glycerol concentrations are a true lifesaver when working with highly saturated soaps!
This also means that you 1. have to keep track of which batch has which amount of glycerol in it, and 2. (0.?) you have to think how to distribute the glycerol across your reductionist soaps.
The well-deserved and overdue revenge for this comment.
Johnez, I seem to recall an experiment that Kevin Dunne ran some few years ago, wherein he and his students made soap with single oil layers - different oils in each layer, but each layer was a single oil. They were bath or hand soaps, not shave soaps. The idea was to see if the soap performed similarly or the same as soap that was made of all the same oils in the normal way or if it performed differently due to the layers being different single oils. The result was that the users couldn't tell the difference in performance & feel of the control soaps (with all oils mixed together as is normally done with soap) versus the experimental soap. The percentages per oil was uniform among the experimental soap and the control soaps.
I have no idea if this is in any way of interest to you, but your plan brought that experiment to mind.
The one upside (if it really is) with stearic acid is that it's chemically not a fat, but a free fatty acid, so the reaction doesn't take an hour or a day, but mere seconds. It's the one you could in theory do in a pot on the stovetop.
ETA: which brings me to my next point: glycerol. A good part of the glycerol in the recipe is to offset the amount that is “missing” by using FFA instead of triglycerides. And soap + glycerol = M&P base, i. e. high glycerol concentrations are a true lifesaver when working with highly saturated soaps!
This also means that you 1. have to keep track of which batch has which amount of glycerol in it, and 2. (0.?) you have to think how to distribute the glycerol across your reductionist soaps.
The well-deserved and overdue revenge for this comment.
Currently at the pot right now with the SA, I just can't wait. First batch I'll do with 15% glycerine (as weight of fat(ty acid) to try to make this workable. Not super concerned about cure rate right now tho that'll probably be a concern later. I just want it to be workable and not turn into a rock on me lol.
I'll do SA today, RBO, sweet almond, sunflower, avacado, tallow, and anything else that sounds interesting in the following days so that a week after my last batch I can be ready to experiment. I'll probably make a separate thread on this just so I can have a space to expand without taking over other threads lol. Thanks ever so much for your contributions, as you were the main driver behind this whole idea.
This is very interesting and relevant! I'm curious and will search this out to see the results. Did they happen to physically layer the different soaps or melt them together? I'm not surprised about the results to be honest being that I'm pretty sure this manufacturers have gone this route being the ingredients list often times list things like "Sodium Tallowate" as opposed to "tallow, sodium hydroxide," however that might be label trickery to avoid listing scary chemical names.
He passed around the soaps at a conference I was at a few years back as well showing slides. The layers weren't like smooth flat layers one makes with colors and all that. The batters were mixed separately then poured into the mold a bit haphazardly by the look of it, but with a clear intent to NOT allow them to mix. No, they did not 'melt them together', which I assume to mean make single oil soaps separately and then put them together after they were solid. The raw soap (fluid batter) was poured into the mold and then allowed to finish setting up and cure.
As to the labeling, no it's not trickery, it's the way labeling is mandated to be done (via regulations). In the US, we have two ways we are allowed by federal regulations to list the ingredients in soap. In the US we can list it as what comes out of the pot or as what goes into the pot (soapmaking pot or mixing bowl or whatever vessel is used). If what goes into the pot is tallow, water and sodium hydroxide, what comes out is sodium tallowate, glycerin and water (although some water evaporates off, there is really no way of knowing for sure if & when all the water is ever gone). Also some unsaponified bits of oils, but no one seems to list those, and without analysis, we don't know what all of those are and the percentage is so small they don't have to be listed anyway. (Some folks may know at least in part, but most soapmakers wouldn't.)
Reference on labeling in the US: Ingredient Labels for Soap - Marie Gale
and this list of pertinent regulatory agencies in the US: Federal Agencies, Regs & Laws - Marie Gale
and the basic label requirements per the FTC (in the US) for consumer products: Fair Packaging and Labeling Act: Regulations Under Section 4 of the Fair Packaging and Labeling Act
