ROE and sodium gluconate usage - requesting help with plan details

[merrysoap]

Hello lovely soapers,

I recently had a few batches of soap get DOS (they truly are dreadful!) and while I know that I accidentally used a *very* old castor oil in those batches, I'm still not 110% sure that there wasn't something else going on. After chatting with some of the experienced soapers here (thanks @DeeAnna !), I decided to order some rosemary oleoresin extract (ROE) and sodium gluconate (SG) to use as more "natural" options for an antioxidant and chelator, respectively. I've reviewed Kevin Dunn's article on DOS and also the two articles about ROE and SG on DeeAnna's website (ROE - https://classicbells.com/soap/ROE.asp ; SG - https://classicbells.com/soap/sodiumGluconate.asp). I feel fairly confident with my plan but would love to run it by the forum to make sure I am set up for success.

***ROE questions***

The ROE I purchased from WSP is 7% carnosic acid. Per DeeAnna's website and the Kevin Dunn article, recommended usage rates are between 0.02% - 0.1% per pound of FATS. I plan to go in the middle and use 0.05% ROE per pound of oils.

I have bulk olive, avocado, and castor oils that are already opened. My understanding is that the hard oils (coconut, Shea butter, etc.) do not need ROE mixed in. Without pouring the liquid oils out and measuring how much is left in each container (which I'd prefer not to do since I'm trying to decrease all possible avenues for contamination), I don't have a good way of knowing the exact weight of the oil I have remaining. I saw that you can add ROE to the liquid oils before adding lye while making an individual batch, but I'm typically making 2# batches that are only about ~1000g and I don't have a scale that can read down to 0.5g (1000g oil x 0.05% = 1000g x 0.0005 = 0.5g ROE). It is also my understanding that adding too much ROE can actually increase the risk of oxidation and worsen DOS, so I want to avoid that possibility at all costs!

How would you proceed? Would you pour out the remaining bulk oils to add the ROE and then put them back in their containers? Or if you were going to add ROE while making an individual batch, do you calculate the 0.05% based only on the liquid oil weight (if hard oils and butters like coconut and Shea don't necessarily need it)? If adding ROE while making an individual batch, any tips for measuring out such a small amount (I typically make batches with 2# oils, or 907g total oils > 0.05% of 907g is only 0.45g!).

***SG usage***

I feel like SG is more straightforward. Mine is Crafter's Choice purchased from WSP. Per DeeAnna's website, SG powder is used at 0.5-1% of TOTAL batch weight, so 5-10 grams per 1000g batch weight. The powder is mixed into any water-based liquid (lye water, extra distilled water, etc.) and may cause slight discoloration of the batter after the lye is added (which shouldn't last).

Does this look correct?

I realize the beginner's forum may not be the best place for this post but figured there may be others interested in the topic. I know there are lots of other posts out there on similar topics so thank you in advance to anyone able to offer their advice!

PS: For labeling purposes, I would assume that SG and ROE would be the very last items on the labels since they are used in such small amounts... correct?

 

[A-Polly]

Hello merrysoap (I like the name you chose!). There are a bunch of threads in the forum about using ROE, and many of them describe "Zany's Drops" — which is a way to dilute the ROE in another oil and then add the mixture to your oils. Here is the info in a nutshell:

For ease of use, I make up the following :
1 oz. ROE
2 oz. Jojoba Oil (long shelf life)
Use 1/4 - 1/2 teaspoon PPO (Per Pound Oils)

Doesn't have to be jojoba oil; something like fractionated coconut oil also has a long shelf life and will work, too. Zany doesn't mention it in this post, but elsewhere she said that she gently warms the very viscous ROE in a water bath to make it easier to mix with the other oil; just search around and I'm sure you will see that described.

What I did was put the ROE-jojoba blend into a little glass bottle with a dropper top, and then used a jeweler's scale to make some measurement tests. My results worked out to 1 drop of the mixture per ounce of oil (using a very small glass dropper). The dilution mixes more easily into the oil, and also makes it more convenient to weigh out larger amounts if needed. A cheap jeweler's scale is very handy!

Check out this thread and scroll down to post #9 to see the rest of the post quoted above, which also includes an attached PDF with lots more info about ROE.
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/thr...-things-to-keep-bars-from-going-rancid.82807/

Good luck with your making!

 

[ewhitake]

I make something similar for my butter heavy lotions and body butters. But I include Vit E and Asorbyl Palmitate. And keep it refrigerated between uses.

Hello merrysoap (I like the name you chose!). There are a bunch of threads in the forum about using ROE, and many of them describe "Zany's Drops" — which is a way to dilute the ROE in another oil and then add the mixture to your oils. Here is the info in a nutshell:

Doesn't have to be jojoba oil; something like fractionated coconut oil also has a long shelf life and will work, too. Zany doesn't mention it in this post, but elsewhere she said that she gently warms the very viscous ROE in a water bath to make it easier to mix with the other oil; just search around and I'm sure you will see that described.

What I did was put the ROE-jojoba blend into a little glass bottle with a dropper top, and then used a jeweler's scale to make some measurement tests. My results worked out to 1 drop of the mixture per ounce of oil (using a very small glass dropper). The dilution mixes more easily into the oil, and also makes it more convenient to weigh out larger amounts if needed. A cheap jeweler's scale is very handy!

Check out this thread and scroll down to post #9 to see the rest of the post quoted above, which also includes an attached PDF with lots more info about ROE.
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/thr...-things-to-keep-bars-from-going-rancid.82807/

Good luck with your making!

 

[cmzaha]

I personally would make a good guess at how much is left in my partial bottles and add in a few drops of ROE. I personally never added ROE in individual batches just in my 5-gallon jugs of oil when I first opened them. My EDTA/SG combination combined with my low superfat seemed to keep DOS issues non-existent.