Recipe help

[Ekuzo]

Thank you so much for the information. The soybean oil (vegetable oil) that I was looking into is at sams club. It looks like their version has a higher polyunsaturated fat (8g) and a lower monounsaturated fat (3.5g). It does say that it has a high smoke point though. Perhaps keep looking? You all are beyond awesome!

Hmmmm, it seems the one you found is the normal, low oleic type of soybean oil. You can try the recipe that way, but I'm pretty sure the soap will get DOS without the proper additives

 

[A-Polly]

Hello @MommaSoaper - don't know if this will be useful or not, but there is an Australian soapmaker (George at Dawn Organics, he has a YouTube channel and also sells on his website) who began using soybean oil in many of his soaps a year or 2 ago and he seems very happy with the results. He buys oil from this Australian company. It doesn't seem to be particularly special (other than non-GMO), but perhaps something on their webpage would help you evaluate what you buy at Sam's.

This is George's review, which you can see at the bottom of the Heirloom Body Care webpage:
"Such a great oil, very glad I bought this to try. Definitely recommend this over rice bran oil as it is just as conditioning as Olive oil
but doesn't accelerate trace like rice bran. Using this at 30% of the oils. Very good!"

Lastly, here is one of George's videos with a recipe in the description box (scroll down to "Recipe Information"); the recipe he used is very similar to the one you asked about originally, except he added very small amounts of olive oil and castor oil:
Dawn Organics video

I think I'd just go for it with the Sam's oil, but I don't have your very particular customer! Good luck!

 

[Mobjack Bay]

From what I understand, there are 3 main soybean products used in soaping (at least those 3 are present in SMF).

Let's try this again:

1. Regular soybean oil is indeed high in linoleic acid (2 unsaturated bonds), and also has linolenic acid (3 unsaturated bonds) at 10-20% which makes it a poor choice for soap making.

2. High oleic liquid oils are not hydrogenated. They are derived from plant strains developed through natural breeding or genetic engineering. The high oleic soybean oil @AliOop referenced is very likely from genetically engineered soybeans.

3. Partially hydrogenated soybean oils vary with respect to oleic acid content.

GW 415, is low in oleic fatty acid*:

Fatty acid composition (typical values per 100 g) - from the manufacturer:

• Saturated fat 44 g (palmitic and stearic acid)
• trans fat 39.4 g (possibly elaidic acid)
• Monounsaturated fat 16.6 g (oleic acid)
• Polyunsaturated fat 0 g

*eta: elaidic acid is monounsaturated, but it’s a straight chain FA rather than a “kinky” oleic chain. This has implications for soap making.

But, another type of soy wax sold by Majestic Mountain Sage in the US has this fatty acid profile:

Stearic 39%, Palmitic 10%, Oleic 41%, Linoleic 9.3%, Linolenic 1.3%.

4. Fully hydrogenated soy wax composition probably varies little:

Fully hydrogenated soy wax sold by Majestic Mountain Sage in the US has about 87% stearic and 11% palmitic. Has no linoleic or linolenic.
Another fully hydrogenated wax sold in Europe is called "soybean oil hydrogenated Ph. Eur. 9.0". It's produced in Germany by a company called gustavheess. The fatty acid composition is as follows:
myristic 0.1%
palmitic 10.3%
stearic 88.1%
arachidic acid 0.7
behenic acid 0.4

 

[AliOop]

2. High oleic liquid oils are not hydrogenated. They are derived from plant strains developed through natural breeding or genetic engineering. The high oleic soybean oil @AliOop referenced is very likely from genetically engineered soybeans.

Thank you for clarifying this. That was my understanding, as well. And I probably confused the issue by calling them "high oleic" when I think they are just marked as "suitable for high heat" or "high smoke point" or something like that. I just assumed that meant they were high oleic. So sorry if that's not correct.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Thank you for clarifying this. That was my understanding, as well. And I probably confused the issue by calling them "high oleic" when I think they are just marked as "suitable for high heat" or "high smoke point" or something like that. I just assumed that meant they were high oleic. So sorry if that's not correct.

Oh, too bad... If it's Member's Mark 100% Pure Clear Frying Oil, it's not high oleic. The saturated and monounsaturated fats are only 36% of the total.

 

[Ekuzo]

Let's try this again:

1. Regular soybean oil is indeed high in linoleic acid (2 unsaturated bonds), and also has linolenic acid (3 unsaturated bonds) at 10-20% which makes it a poor choice for soap making.

2. High oleic liquid oils are not hydrogenated. They are derived from plant strains developed through natural breeding or genetic engineering. The high oleic soybean oil @AliOop referenced is very likely from genetically engineered soybeans.

3. Partially hydrogenated soybean oils vary with respect to oleic acid content.

GW 415, is low in oleic fatty acid*:

Fatty acid composition (typical values per 100 g) - from the manufacturer:

• Saturated fat 44 g (palmitic and stearic acid)
• trans fat 39.4 g (possibly elaidic acid)
• Monounsaturated fat 16.6 g (oleic acid)
• Polyunsaturated fat 0 g

*eta: elaidic acid is monounsaturated, but it’s a straight chain FA rather than a “kinky” oleic chain. This has implications for soap making.

But, another type of soy wax sold by Majestic Mountain Sage in the US has this fatty acid profile:

Stearic 39%, Palmitic 10%, Oleic 41%, Linoleic 9.3%, Linolenic 1.3%.

4. Fully hydrogenated soy wax composition probably varies little:

Fully hydrogenated soy wax sold by Majestic Mountain Sage in the US has about 87% stearic and 11% palmitic. Has no linoleic or linolenic.
Another fully hydrogenated wax sold in Europe is called "soybean oil hydrogenated Ph. Eur. 9.0". It's produced in Germany by a company called gustavheess. The fatty acid composition is as follows:
myristic 0.1%
palmitic 10.3%
stearic 88.1%
arachidic acid 0.7
behenic acid 0.4

1. More or less my point, more detailed. What I find interesting here is that regular sunflower oil has even higher combined % of linoleic/linolenic than soybean, and yet some soapers love using it. At least at some low %.

2. I know about the selection part, that's how HOSO is made as well. Since I haven't seen/used that 27.5% hydrogenated soybean oil, I assumed it is liquid or at least semi‐liquid - judging by the FA profile in the calculator (which is quite different from the profile of the solid GW 415 you mentioned). Plus both partially and fully hydrogenated oils are used in the food industry, so assuming this partially hydrogenated oil was one of them was not that far fetched as part of the guessing game.

3. That's interesting and quite detailed ‐ I read the long post from the thread you shared. Their saturated % is quite close, even though the ratio between their own unsaturated fats differs significantly. Those particular profiles are missing from SMF (and the rest, I assume), and the 27.5% one is a completely different animal.

4. No discrepancy here, all good

 

[Mobjack Bay]

@ekozo I'm not trying to be ornery, but I would like to keep the confusion level about soy products as low as possible. The many forms of soy "wax" and partially hydrogenated soy products add to the confusion, plus the manufacturers of products that are not intended for consumption keep information proprietary, which doesn't help. The most popular calculators rarely update fats and oils, plus most appear to be working off a single data base (likely copied from one original source) and have errors, which adds yet another level of confusion (more on that in this enlightening thread). I've never seen or used the product, but I'm fairly certain that the 27.5% soy product sold in the US is marketed as "Creamy Liquid Shortening," So, yes, a liquid, but not high oleic. The Bakers and Chefs brand has been referenced on the forum since at least 2008.

P.S. I never asked to have the GW 415 "soy wax" FA profile I developed added to the calculator because it was developed as a paper exercise, not via testing in the lab. I plan to address that in my next life when I am reincarnated as a soap chemist with an unlimited budget and lots of technical support.

 

[MommaSoaper]

Hello @MommaSoaper - don't know if this will be useful or not, but there is an Australian soapmaker (George at Dawn Organics, he has a YouTube channel and also sells on his website) who began using soybean oil in many of his soaps a year or 2 ago and he seems very happy with the results. He buys oil from this Australian company. It doesn't seem to be particularly special (other than non-GMO), but perhaps something on their webpage would help you evaluate what you buy at Sam's.

This is George's review, which you can see at the bottom of the Heirloom Body Care webpage:
"Such a great oil, very glad I bought this to try. Definitely recommend this over rice bran oil as it is just as conditioning as Olive oil
but doesn't accelerate trace like rice bran. Using this at 30% of the oils. Very good!"

Lastly, here is one of George's videos with a recipe in the description box (scroll down to "Recipe Information"); the recipe he used is very similar to the one you asked about originally, except he added very small amounts of olive oil and castor oil:
Dawn Organics video

I think I'd just go for it with the Sam's oil, but I don't have your very particular customer! Good luck!

Thank you for the info! Ill check it out Im still not sure why they want soy oil but Im trying to get to the bottom of it. Ty!

 

[Ekuzo]

@Modjack Bay yes, after all, the numbers in the calculators are just guidelines, not rules.

It seems the 27.5%'s profile in SMF is actually closer to a mid-oleic oil, not a high-oleic one, so it seems I overlooked that. In addition to what was discussed it kind of snowballed a bit, so I understand why you would want that pointed out to avoid further confusion.

Thanks for the input

 

[akseattle]

I plan to address that in my next life when I am reincarnated as a soap chemist with an unlimited budget and lots of technical support.

@Mobjack Bay - be ornery as you want !! please!! In my next life, I will be your devoted assistant!!!
I dream of a nuanced soapcalc ....

 

[Mobjack Bay]

@Mobjack Bay - be ornery as you want !! please!! In my next life, I will be your devoted assistant!!!
I dream of a nuanced soapcalc ....

We would have so much fun but would never be able to address all of the questions we have!

 

[akseattle]

We would have so much fun but would never be able to address all of the questions we have!

So true!