Recipe help

[MommaSoaper]

Hi all,

Editing this for clarity:

Curious what your thoughts are on this recipe:

50% palm shortening (100% Palm)
32% soybean oil (vegetable oil)
18% coconut

3% superfat

I've never used soybean oil before. Will it cause DOS?

Thank you for your thoughts and input!

 

[artemis]

What are your goals with this recipe?

 

[MommaSoaper]

What are your goals with this recipe?

I was asked to create a recipe using those ingredients. They are looking for a good moisturizing bar of soap but I think costs need to stay low. I was planning to test once soybean oil arrived but thought to ask the community their thoughts in the mean time. Much apprecaited!

What are your goals with this recipe?

 

[Ekuzo]

Hi there!

Is your soybean oil hydrogenated partly or fully, a.k.a. soy wax?

And this particular palm shortening - do you have a fatty acid profile for it as a point of reference?

 

[artemis]

And this particular palm shortening - do you have a fatty acid profile for it as a point of reference?

I expect it's just the one called "palm oil" in the soap calcs

 

[Ekuzo]

I expect it's just the one called "palm oil" in the soap calcs

Hope so. If it was some sort of a blend with mostly palm, it could change the numbers and that wouldn't be a desired effect - especially with 3% SF and if it's a small batch. Needed to make sure just in case

 

[bookworm42]

I agree with @Ekuzo. Check the ingredients to be sure. In my experience shortening is usually a combination of things.

 

[A-Polly]

I don't use palm oil often, but when I do it's this one, 100 percent organic and fair trade palm oil, produced in Colombia, South America. Works great!
It may cost more than Malaysian palm oil (I don't really know, haven't priced it!), but I'm a hobbyist and don't sell. If I depended on making soap for a living, I'd probably do without palm altogether if I couldn't justify the cost.

[Edited to add: I'm sure there are other similar brands with palm oil from Africa or other South American countries, but this one is the one that is available to me in local stores.]

Spectrum shortening

 

[MommaSoaper]

The palm shortening is 100% palm. Its the same SAP value as palm oil and Ive had no issues using it over the years. I was trying to find hydrogenated soybean but none found locally. Looking at purchasing 100% soybean oil (liquid). Before purchasing, wanted to hear the communities thoughts. Thank you all!

Its

I expect it's just the one called "palm oil" in the soap calcs

100% palm. As previously advised, Im using the palm oil SAP value and havent had any issues. Its the soybean oil that Im unfamiliar with.

 

[AliOop]

If it is high-oleic soybean oil, I'd be fine with it. My local Costco offers this in a two-gallon pack; it is labeled as "high heat cooking oil" or something like that.

Hydrogenated soybean oil = soy wax, FYI. This is the same soy wax that @KiwiMoose uses in her vegan recipes with great success. Just make sure it doesn't have any additives, which many soy waxes do, as they are used more for candlemaking.

 

[MommaSoaper]

Hi there!

Is your soybean oil hydrogenated partly or fully, a.k.a. soy wax?

And this particular palm shortening - do you have a fatty acid profile for it as a point of reference?

I was looking for hydrogenated but none found locally. Looking at 100% soybean oil (liquid). The palm shortening has the same SAP value as regular palm.

If it is high-oleic soybean oil, I'd be fine with it. My local Costco offers this in a two-gallon pack; it is labeled as "high heat cooking oil" or something like that.

Hydrogenated soybean oil = soy wax, FYI. This is the same soy wax that @KiwiMoose uses in her vegan recipes with great success. Just make sure it doesn't have any additives, which many soy waxes do, as they are used more for candlemaking.

Thank you so much! Im looking at Sams Club version for this soap. No additives. As you know, this isnt my recipe. Someone has asked me to make a specific soap for them with these ingredients. Ive never deviated from my tried and true ingredients so this is a new adventure. Just want to make sure DOS isnt going to find me! Lol! Youre the best!

 

[AliOop]

Thank you so much! Im looking at Sams Club version for this soap. No additives. As you know, this isnt my recipe. Someone has asked me to make a specific soap for them with these ingredients. Ive never deviated from my tried and true ingredients so this is a new adventure. Just want to make sure DOS isnt going to find me! Lol! Youre the best!

If the Sam's Club version is high oleic (marked as high heat, fry oil, etc.) you will probably be ok. Still, I'd add a chelator for sure, as well as ROE at least to the soybean oil, or to the entire masterbatch if that's how you roll. Good luck!

 

[MommaSoaper]

If the Sam's Club version is high oleic (marked as high heat, fry oil, etc.) you will probably be ok. Still, I'd add a chelator for sure, as well as ROE at least to the soybean oil, or to the entire masterbatch if that's how you roll. Good luck!

Its marked as high smoke point. I typically add a chelator to all of my soaps but her soap doesnt contain a chelator and she doesnt want anything added to her recipe Im also not seeing ROE in her ingredients. Soybean is listed as soy oil Frustrating sometimes with special orders.

 

[AliOop]

Soybean is listed as soy oil

I am a little confused now, bc you said you were originally looking for hydrogenated soybean oil. That is going to be listed and sold as soy wax and is in flake form, whereas plain ole soybean oil is the liquid stuff at Sam's Club.

I haven't checked SAP numbers to see if they are the same, but I don't believe they are, and I don't believe they behave similarly in soap.

EDITED FOR CLARITY: In other words, I don't believe you can swap soybean oil and hydrogenated soybean oil (aka soy wax) on a one-for-one basis, like you do for palm and hydrogenated palm. Make sense?

 

[KiwiMoose]

I doubt you would ever get soy wax locally - it is mostly ordered from candle making suppliers.

 

[AliOop]

I can find it here at Hobby Lobby or Michaels in very small quantities, at very high prices. It's definitely better to buy online from a candle supplier!

 

[MommaSoaper]

I am a little confused now, bc you said you were originally looking for hydrogenated soybean oil. That is going to be listed and sold as soy wax and is in flake form, whereas plain ole soybean oil is the liquid stuff at Sam's Club.

I haven't checked SAP numbers to see if they are the same, but I don't believe they are, and I don't believe they behave similarly in soap.

EDITED FOR CLARITY: In other words, I don't believe you can swap soybean oil and hydrogenated soybean oil (aka soy wax) on a one-for-one basis, like you do for palm and hydrogenated palm. Make sense?

I really don't know what kind of Soy product it is and neither does the woman I'm making it for. It's listed as "Soy Oil"..... I'm just researching the different types of Soy products trying to narrow down what it could be. There is a language barrier on top of it all so it's been quite the challenge. I'm sorry for all the confusion. I'm exhausted with two little ones under my feet.

I was looking for hydrogenated but none found locally. Looking at 100% soybean oil (liquid). The palm shortening has the same SAP value as regular palm.

If it is high-oleic soybean oil, I'd be fine with it. My local Costco offers this in a two-gallon pack; it is labeled as "high heat cooking oil" or something like that.

Hydrogenated soybean oil = soy wax, FYI. This is the same soy wax that @KiwiMoose uses in her vegan recipes with great success. Just make sure it doesn't have any additives, which many soy waxes do, as they are used more for candlemaking.

I believe you are correct in that it's probably just Soybean Oil.

 

[AliOop]

I really don't know what kind of Soy product it is and neither does the woman I'm making it for. It's listed as "Soy Oil"..... I'm just researching the different types of Soy products trying to narrow down what it could be. There is a language barrier on top of it all so it's been quite the challenge. I'm sorry for all the confusion. I'm exhausted with two little ones under my feet.

Sorry this has been a stressful situation for you! It does sound like it's regular soybean oil - not hydrogenated - that you want.

 

[Ekuzo]

I wanted to share my observation, along with some thoughts on the recipe itself.

From what I understand, there are 3 main soybean products used in soaping (at least those 3 are present in SMF).

The first one is the regular soybean oil, which is high in linoleic acid. If the recipe has this one with that high %, the soap would be very prone to DOS unless you use the right combo of chelator/antioxidant. That % of soybean oil could normally also result in a softer bar of soap, but in this particular case with that % of saturated fats that shouldn't be the case. Overall, it won't be a great recipe by itself, but with the correct additives it could be fine.

The second one is the partially hydrogenated one which is high in oleic acid (I think that is the same as what AliOop refers to as the high oleic soybean oil variety used in high temp cooking, but I may be wrong). If this is the one used in the recipe, I think that would make the most balanced option, closer to the usual soap trinity PO/CO/OO and it will give you both really good soap qualities and enough saturated/unsaturated ratio for the recipe to be easily workable under the right conditions. In theory that should result in a hard bar of soap with good lather, not too harsh on the skin. This would be the best option IMO, if it's present. I think you mentioned you found soybean oil labeled as 'high smoke point' - to make sure it's the right one, check the label ‐ monounsaturated fatty acids should make the majority of its content for it to be the high oleic type, If that's the case - I say go for it, the soap made with it will be (in theory) similar to one made with olive oil).

Now the third one is what is referred to as soy wax and it's fully hydrogenated. It makes a hard soap bar because it has lots of stearic acid in it. If that's what they want used in the recipe (which I doubt, since it would otherwise be listed as soy wax or hydrogenated soybean oil, not as soy oil only ‐ but you also mentioned language barrier here, so I'm not exactly sure what they want in the soap), that would make a really hard bar of soap with plenty of saturated fatty acids (all fats are solid after all), which could be a little tricky to work with since the batter will trace fast. While it would make a fine enough soap, I don't see a reason why you wouldn't put some liquid oil in it, for balance and for convenience. Overall, the second option is the best to me, which is great since you probably have the high oleic liquid type available to you.

HTH and sorry for the long post

 

[MommaSoaper]

I wanted to share my observation, along with some thoughts on the recipe itself.

From what I understand, there are 3 main soybean products used in soaping (at least those 3 are present in SMF).

The first one is the regular soybean oil, which is high in linoleic acid. If the recipe has this one with that high %, the soap would be very prone to DOS unless you use the right combo of chelator/antioxidant. That % of soybean oil could normally also result in a softer bar of soap, but in this particular case with that % of saturated fats that shouldn't be the case. Overall, it won't be a great recipe by itself, but with the correct additives it could be fine.

The second one is the partially hydrogenated one which is high in oleic acid (I think that is the same as what AliOop refers to as the high oleic soybean oil variety used in high temp cooking, but I may be wrong). If this is the one used in the recipe, I think that would make the most balanced option, closer to the usual soap trinity PO/CO/OO and it will give you both really good soap qualities and enough saturated/unsaturated ratio for the recipe to be easily workable under the right conditions. In theory that should result in a hard bar of soap with good lather, not too harsh on the skin. This would be the best option IMO, if it's present. I think you mentioned you found soybean oil labeled as 'high smoke point' - to make sure it's the right one, check the label ‐ monounsaturated fatty acids should make the majority of its content for it to be the high oleic type, If that's the case - I say go for it, the soap made with it will be (in theory) similar to one made with olive oil).

Now the third one is what is referred to as soy wax and it's fully hydrogenated. It makes a hard soap bar because it has lots of stearic acid in it. If that's what they want used in the recipe (which I doubt, since it would otherwise be listed as soy wax or hydrogenated soybean oil, not as soy oil only ‐ but you also mentioned language barrier here, so I'm not exactly sure what they want in the soap), that would make a really hard bar of soap with plenty of saturated fatty acids (all fats are solid after all), which could be a little tricky to work with since the batter will trace fast. While it would make a fine enough soap, I don't see a reason why you wouldn't put some liquid oil in it, for balance and for convenience. Overall, the second option is the best to me, which is great since you probably have the high oleic liquid type available to you.

HTH and sorry for the long post

Thank you so much for the information. The soybean oil (vegetable oil) that I was looking into is at sams club. It looks like their version has a higher polyunsaturated fat (8g) and a lower monounsaturated fat (3.5g). It does say that it has a high smoke point though. Perhaps keep looking? You all are beyond awesome!