Occupy Wall Street

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Thank you Carebear and PrairieCraft for taking the words right out of my mouth.

The way I see it, there is no such thing as a 'perfect' economic system in the world where everything is 'fair'. Such a system does not exist. When you really think about it, human beings themselves are not 'perfect' or 'fair', so how can any system we come up with ever be 'perfect' or 'fair' to all?

Of all the systems out there, though, I have to say that Capitalism (to the extent that it's allowed to work without a lot of governmental intervention elbowing its way in) is the best of the lot. Does it ever get abused? Yes- and so do all the other systems- but unlike all the others, Capitalism provides the most opportunites and incentives for good work eithics to abound, thereby raising the standard of living for all across the board. History has proven time and again that the same cannot be said of socialist/communist-type systems.

Aristotle, the famous Greek philosopher says it best for me when he stated centuries ago, "That which is common to the greatest number has the least care bestowed upon it." It was true then and it's still true today, because as I observe it, basic human nature is still the same as it's always been. People work best and hardest and are the most generous when what they've earned isn't cumpulsorily taken away from them and given to someone else. That just ruins all incentive for enthusiastice productivity. Who wants to put their heart and soul into something to make it the best it can be when it will only be taken away and handed to someone else? As Carebear said, work ethic suffers, and along with it, quality, and then it all just snowballs from there.

The Pilgrims learned that the hard way early on when they almost starved those first few years after they arrived at Plymouth. They basically proved Aristotle's statement correct, but were finally able to make a success of things when it was decided that everyone should be allowed to grow food for themselves and their own immediate families instead of sharing and producing work equally along communal lines. Once everyone started working for themselves, the Pilgrims were much more willing to work hard and they grew so much food that starvation was just a bad memory.

I don't know if you've ever read William Bradford's diary on those early starving years in Plymouth colony, but it's a pretty eye-opening case study on why Capitalism, although seemingly more 'greedy' is a more successful system than those that tout to be 'more fair and equitable'. In my opinion, that's because Capitalism takes into account and accepts as a given the greediness/selfishness of basic human nature and uses it to the best advantage for the benefit of all through competition, while other systems seem to begrudge the fact that we're basically greedy/selfish and they try to force everyone by law into not being greedy, which usually doesn't go over very well for long. People just don't like being forced, I've noticed.

IrishLass :)
 
Well then is it okay for these companies not to pay taxes on the work they out source?
I do understand we are all to blame for the state of the economy (the fed, the banks, even the consumer) but something needs to happen to fix all of this. someone needs to be taxed more and if you continue to tax me anymore I am going to be out on the streets. I work 12 hour days 5 days a week to pay for my small apartment, and a car. and Praire I do wish I could have know about your friend I would have jump on that job so quickly while I was living in chicago. I got told by every factory I applied for I didn't experience so they wouldn't hire me.
 
carebear said:
What do you hope comes of it all? I really am trying to understand this, not trying to be obtuse.

The protests have begun discussions like this that help us sort through who we are as a nation and how we will embrace globalization.

I appreciate reading and thinking about all the different views on the subject, helps me sort through how I feel about the recent economical changes in my life.
 
khermsen said:
carebear said:
What do you hope comes of it all? I really am trying to understand this, not trying to be obtuse.

The protests have begun discussions like this that help us sort through who we are as a nation and how we will embrace globalization.

I appreciate reading and thinking about all the different views on the subject, helps me sort through how I feel about the recent economical changes in my life.
excellent point
 
I know this thread is aging, but I wanted to throw in my two cents.
How many oc you have been to an OWS protest?
I have; and the basic outcry isn't a general critique of capitalism.
Here are the general themes I've encountered, by signage, conversation, and in open forum:
Campaign finance law- this is a HUGE one.
Unjust war- see the last decade
Erosion of civil liberties in the name of 9/11-wiretapping, TSA, etc.
Monetary Policy
Federal Reserve-Audit the Fed movement
environmental degradation/corporate abuse
energy policy
Mass media-how many individuals now own every newspaper and TV station in the country? How low have journalistic ethics sunk as a result? Who do these corporations serve? It certainly isn't us, and they have incredible power to control the dialogue in this country-this thread is a great example. I've noticed how much support for the movement has eroded as mass media cry that the great unwashed lazy hippies are denouncing capitalism itself and threatening our great economic system...*sarcasm*
The truth is, there is no central message or demand. These are not all radical liberals that lean towards socialism. I've met just as many conservatives who believe in limited government. The problems are generally agreed upon, but viewpoints of solutions different. I see just as many Ron Paul supporrters who want to "starve the beast" as I do statists calling for redistribution.
There, I'm done...
 
...okay, not quite :/
Please find "Occupy Wall Street: Not Here to Destroy Capitalism, but to Remind Us who Saved It" from today's Huffington Post.
Excellent analysis.
 
Well said, Irish Lass. I recently had a discussion with somebody who insisted he thought human nature had changed over the ages. He said what about all the things we know now, all the advances? And I said, that's progress and genius, not how we humans all really are.

This is a smart thread and very thoughful of what's happening with this movement. I was sad to see it take a violent turn in Chicago. I guess I want something good to come of all the energy and effort people have put forth.
 
Maythorn said:
Well said, Irish Lass. I recently had a discussion with somebody who insisted he thought human nature had changed over the ages. He said what about all the things we know now, all the advances? And I said, that's progress and genius, not how we humans all really are.


Well said yourself, Maythorn. I couldn't agree more. :)


Mouse- thank you for your 'on-the-scene' report. :) I will set aside some time tonight to read the article you mentioned.


IrishLass :)
 
IrishLass said:
Thank you Carebear and PrairieCraft for taking the words right out of my mouth.

The way I see it, there is no such thing as a 'perfect' economic system in the world where everything is 'fair'. Such a system does not exist. When you really think about it, human beings themselves are not 'perfect' or 'fair', so how can any system we come up with ever be 'perfect' or 'fair' to all?

Of all the systems out there, though, I have to say that Capitalism (to the extent that it's allowed to work without a lot of governmental intervention elbowing its way in) is the best of the lot. Does it ever get abused? Yes- and so do all the other systems- but unlike all the others, Capitalism provides the most opportunites and incentives for good work eithics to abound, thereby raising the standard of living for all across the board. History has proven time and again that the same cannot be said of socialist/communist-type systems.

Aristotle, the famous Greek philosopher says it best for me when he stated centuries ago, "That which is common to the greatest number has the least care bestowed upon it." It was true then and it's still true today, because as I observe it, basic human nature is still the same as it's always been. People work best and hardest and are the most generous when what they've earned isn't cumpulsorily taken away from them and given to someone else. That just ruins all incentive for enthusiastice productivity. Who wants to put their heart and soul into something to make it the best it can be when it will only be taken away and handed to someone else? As Carebear said, work ethic suffers, and along with it, quality, and then it all just snowballs from there.

The Pilgrims learned that the hard way early on when they almost starved those first few years after they arrived at Plymouth. They basically proved Aristotle's statement correct, but were finally able to make a success of things when it was decided that everyone should be allowed to grow food for themselves and their own immediate families instead of sharing and producing work equally along communal lines. Once everyone started working for themselves, the Pilgrims were much more willing to work hard and they grew so much food that starvation was just a bad memory.

I don't know if you've ever read William Bradford's diary on those early starving years in Plymouth colony, but it's a pretty eye-opening case study on why Capitalism, although seemingly more 'greedy' is a more successful system than those that tout to be 'more fair and equitable'. In my opinion, that's because Capitalism takes into account and accepts as a given the greediness/selfishness of basic human nature and uses it to the best advantage for the benefit of all through competition, while other systems seem to begrudge the fact that we're basically greedy/selfish and they try to force everyone by law into not being greedy, which usually doesn't go over very well for long. People just don't like being forced, I've noticed.

IrishLass :)

This! :eek:)
 

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