Newbies random soaping questions

[penelopejane]

I am frustrated that I don't understand, yet, the following...
What conditions (soaping temp, water amounts) allow for soap to gel on its own, vs using the oven? My first cp, about 6 weeks ago, gelled just fine being wrapped in a towel. I THEN learned of putting it in the oven and turning it off. Ive done this with the last 3 batches as a "just to be sure" measure, but in doing so I may be doing more harm if the oven isn't needed.

To gel a soap you need to provide a micro climate around the mold so the soap keeps the heat it creates during saponification around the soap until it has helped.

An easy way to do this is to use an oven. The oven is not used to heat the soap. Preheat the oven to 100*F the temp of a hot day. Turn the oven off. Wrap your soap. Put it in and leave it untouched for 12-24 hours. This is a reliable foolproof method to use for summer and winter and your soap will always gel completely.

An oven will not hold the heat for that long but it will just be a little Micro climate for the soap.

If you live somewhere hot and you use a wooden mold with a silicone liner and a timber lid and you wrap it you will not have to use the oven to get gel.

If it’s winter or you live somewhere cold you will have to do something different - heat mat etc.

Everyone soaps at different temps, uses different oils, has a different climate, has a different soaping room, cures in a different place. Soaping is a matter of trial and error and finding what works for you.

 

[Laurabolyard]

Thank you for that, Penelopejane.

To what degree does the temp one soaps at have an influence on gel, not gel?
I understand that water does play a role. I just have to do more reading on that. What is 33% lye concentration considered (high/low/average)?
I don't want to put it in the oven, potentially overheating it, if it isn't necessary and I might be creating too much heat.
As earlier said, My first cp soap gelled well just being wrapped in a towel, but I had soaped warmer. Looking to know if that makes any/much difference in the world of gel!

 

[cmzaha]

Unless you are using palm shortening most will lend to a whiter soap. Light Olive Oil, Canola, and Sunflower oil will also lend to a white soap along with tallow and lard. I prefer 45% tallow with 25% lard, of course many here will remember I run into Dos issues lard when no one else seems to, plus lately in some of my older soaps with lard I am beginning to smell the lard, and I fragrance strong. Funny how some things work well for one and not another person. Tallow shortening never give me problems but it is not as luxurious feeling as lard

 

[dibbles]

Your soaps are very pretty. I don't get glycerin rivers often, but was only unable to embrace them in one batch. I think they look pretty cool most of the time. I often soap cool (95-100 - and occasionally cooler than that), so I do force gel. I put my mold on a baking sheet to transport it, set it (baking sheet and all) on a heating pad which sits on top of a thick blanket, turn the heating pad on high and wrap it all up. I will check to see if the mold feels warm or peek to see if it is starting to gel. If not, I will turn the heating pad back on at a medium temp and wrap it all up again. That usually is enough to get it generating heat on it's own and achieving gel.

If you want to get the most of your black or white mica, or TD and AC, stick blend them once adding to your batter. For whatever reason, black and white seem to need that where other colors can generally just be stirred in.

 

[earlene]

I am frustrated that I don't understand, yet, the following...
What conditions (soaping temp, water amounts) allow for soap to gel on its own, vs using the oven? My first cp, about 6 weeks ago, gelled just fine being wrapped in a towel. I THEN learned of putting it in the oven and turning it off. Ive done this with the last 3 batches as a "just to be sure" measure, but in doing so I may be doing more harm if the oven isn't needed.

Conditions and variables that affect gel:

The specific oils you use (some heat faster than others - 100% CO soap heats up fast and gels on its own if you want it to or not - I think it even does this if you put it in a freezer, as I remember reading someone did that and it still heated & gelled)

How much water you use in your recipe (or water replacement) - high water soaps can heat more than low water soaps

Temperatures are of course a factor. Example: HP soaping requires the addition of heat to force a faster gel

Fragrances that contribute to heat

Additives that contain heating agents, such as sugar or alcohol

If you use more heat and ingredients that contribute to heating, your soap will most likely gel on its own without any help.

If you soap cool and use a water discount and use no heat contributing ingredients, the soap probably won't gel unless you do something to help it along.

So, it really comes down to learning how a particular recipe is likely to act and adjust your methodology based on your desired outcome.

Thank you for that, Penelopejane.

To what degree does the temp one soaps at have an influence on gel, not gel?
I understand that water does play a role. I just have to do more reading on that. What is 33% lye concentration considered (high/low/average)?
I don't want to put it in the oven, potentially overheating it, if it isn't necessary and I might be creating too much heat.
As earlier said, My first cp soap gelled well just being wrapped in a towel, but I had soaped warmer. Looking to know if that makes any/much difference in the world of gel!

To what degree? Heating soap batter leads to gel. It's that simple. Soaping at higher temperatures leads to gel. That's what HP soap is all about.

Cool soaping temperatures slow down how fast the soap batter reaches gel so you have more time to do intricate designs and swirls. That's one major benefit of CP and soaping cool.

But to what degree depends on the variables mentioned in previous posts.

"My first cp soap gelled well just being wrapped in a towel, but I had soaped warmer. Looking to know if that makes any/much difference in the world of gel!"

Yes, it makes a difference! But so does your recipe and water amount and heat facilitating additives.

"What is 33% lye concentration considered (high/low/average)?"
I don't know how to answer that question. 50% Lye Concentration is HIGH Lye Concentration. 25% Lye Concentration is low lye concentration.

I don't know if this link will help or muddy the waters for you, but Roberto Akira has put together very good information on lye concentration: http://www.japudo.com.br/2013/05/14/the-importance-of-lye-concentration/

 

[Steve85569]

Here's an informative post. Not really what you are looking for now but it's good information for helping get started.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/geek-tips.57129/

I'll keep hunting the post I was looking for and link it in too.

 

[Laurabolyard]

WOW, Earlene, thank you!!! That REALLY gives me a point of reference!! I'm thinking, at this point, I should really start learning about oils and what they do. SO much to learn, partly why I am loving this new hobby, although the frustration is part of the learning process!! I'm thinking, at this point, that I should find a recipe and stick with it for awhile, for comparison sake. Then I can experiment with temp, water, and additives, AND FRAGRANCE!!

 

[Misschief]

SO much to learn, partly why I am loving this new hobby, although the frustration is part of the learning process!! I'm thinking, at this point, that I should find a recipe and stick with it for awhile, for comparison sake. Then I can experiment with temp, water, and additives, AND FRAGRANCE!!

That's one of the reasons I love soap making. There's always something to learn, isn't there? I don't know if you ARE a science teacher or not, but me? I failed Chem 11 the first year I took it and just barely passed it the second time and, yet, here I am... doing chemistry every time I make a batch of soap. And loving it!

 

[dixiedragon]

Laura, you may want to check out Kevin Dunn's book "Scientific Soap Making." He is a chemist by trade and really dug into the science behind soaping.

You may find that you get more responses by posting a new thread, because people may read your first post and respond to that question, without realizing you have a new question on page 2 or 5.

Welcome!

 

[Laurabolyard]

That's one of the reasons I love soap making. There's always something to learn, isn't there? I don't know if you ARE a science teacher or not, but me? I failed Chem 11 the first year I took it and just barely passed it the second time and, yet, here I am... doing chemistry every time I make a batch of soap. And loving it!

I teach elementary school, so all subjects. Science is my FAVORITE, though chemistry would be my Achilles heel! My feeling right now is that I've basically learned the "HOW", but in order to progress as a learner, I need to know the WHY!!

I don't know if this link will help or muddy the waters for you, but Roberto Akira has put together very good information on lye concentration: http://www.japudo.com.br/2013/05/14/the-importance-of-lye-concentration/

Earlene, that is good info. It took me a while of looking at it to start to make some sense of it, but the more I learn, the more sense it will make! Thank you!!

Laura, you may want to check out Kevin Dunn's book "Scientific Soap Making." He is a chemist by trade and really dug into the science behind soaping.

You may find that you get more responses by posting a new thread, because people may read your first post and respond to that question, without realizing you have a new question on page 2 or 5.

Welcome!

thank you so much! Sometimes I have a really random question and hate to start a thread for it! You make a good point!

Here's an informative post. Not really what you are looking for now but it's good information for helping get started.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/geek-tips.57129/

I'll keep hunting the post I was looking for and link it in too.

Thank you, heading there now!!

 

[Steve85569]

There are links buried within that thread that should make for an epic read.

Soap tends to gel at lower temperatures with higher water contents. I was looking for a specific thread that explained at what water content: temperature it gels. So a LOWER lye concentration helps soap gel at a lower temperature. The Higher the lye concentration the higher the temperature needed for the soup to enter the gel phase. There was a challenge using a split batch of soap where we kept one half at low water and WAITED forever for it to thicken at which time water was added to the second half and a swirl was poured (quickly). Makes for a very interesting effect. Aunti Clara has something on it too. That really helps one to understand more about HOW to create gel or not.

 

[earlene]

There are links buried within that thread that should make for an epic read.

Soap tends to gel at lower temperatures with higher water contents. I was looking for a specific thread that explained at what water content: temperature it gels. So a LOWER lye concentration helps soap gel at a lower temperature. The Higher the lye concentration the higher the temperature needed for the soup to enter the gel phase. There was a challenge using a split batch of soap where we kept one half at low water and WAITED forever for it to thicken at which time water was added to the second half and a swirl was poured (quickly). Makes for a very interesting effect. Aunti Clara has something on it too. That really helps one to understand more about HOW to create gel or not.

Here is the High Low water challenge thread - December 2015: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/smf-december-challenge-high-and-low-water-batch.57559/
Links to Auntie Clara's ghost swirl blog posts are in the first post.

 

[Steve85569]

And the links come pouring in....

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/numbers-on-soap-bar-quality.50018/

 

[Soapprentice]

I think I am one of those odd balls who absolutely love glycerine rivers..

And I remember that video, learnt a lot from it.

 

[Saffron]

Here's a random question:

Q. How long does NAOH keep if stored in its original airtight and sealed container which has never been opened?

I thought it kept for good, but am seeing people talking about 'old lye' messing up their soap batches.

 

[Steve85569]

Watch for chunks in your NaOH. They are the tell tale sign that moisture has gotten in. As long as there is no air/moisture getting in the container it will keep indefinitely.

 

[Saffron]

Watch for chunks in your NaOH. They are the tell tale sign that moisture has gotten in. As long as there is no air/moisture getting in the container it will keep indefinitely.

Thanks. I thought as much.

 

[amd]

Here's a random question:

Q. How long does NAOH keep if stored in its original airtight and sealed container which has never been opened?

I thought it kept for good, but am seeing people talking about 'old lye' messing up their soap batches.

The shelf life is 3 years from manufacture, so entirely possible it is old lye, regardless if air/moisture gets into the packaging.

 

[Laurabolyard]

Here is the High Low water challenge thread - December 2015: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/smf-december-challenge-high-and-low-water-batch.57559/
Links to Auntie Clara's ghost swirl blog posts are in the first post.

Thank you!! I'm about to dig in!!

Watch for chunks in your NaOH. They are the tell tale sign that moisture has gotten in. As long as there is no air/moisture getting in the container it will keep indefinitely.

Thank you! I'm on my way to a little more understanding! Your post above was very helpful! I dropped my lye concentration to 30% and soaped at about 95 degrees. I don't know if that's enough on either end. We will see! I liked soaping warmer, ensuring gel, but not such a fluid batter! Truth be told, so far I still think I prefer hp, but I'm enjoying the experimentation and having fun with some designs!

Ok, with this evenings reading, I'm leaning toward these conclusions...

More water, (25-27% lye ratio) better to insure gel, increased instance of soda ash (which I've not yet encountered) more likelihood of glycerine rivers, longer to unmold, longer to cure, but more time for intricate designs.
Thus far, I haven't used that low of a lye ratio. The lowest was this evening at 30%. I began pouring at emulsification and was happy to not being in a panic because everything moved NICE and slow!
Back to reading!!

Wow, even at 30% lye concentration, this soap is REALLY soft after 24 hours!! Kind of like play dough! NOTED, a few percentages makes a big difference, but I DID get a lot of 'play time'!!

 

[toxikon]

Wow, even at 30% lye concentration, this soap is REALLY soft after 24 hours!! Kind of like play dough! NOTED, a few percentages makes a big difference, but I DID get a lot of 'play time'!!

Sorry if I missed it, what recipe did you use?

There's definitely a few reasons your soap could be soft! Using lots of soft oils can definitely cause a slower hardening.

I'd still consider 30% Lye Conc fairly high water, I usually stick to 35%. But that's all personal preference. My soap sets up hard in about 24-48 hours and my recipes are around 60% hard oils (lard, tallow and coconut).