Introduction and Castile paste

[Lindy]

Now let's talk liquid soap. Unless you SF you have to neutralize because the neutralizing is to take care of the excess lye which wouldn't exist with a SF. However, 8% is way too high and a lot of liquid soap makers do a 1% SF to be safe and not have to add citric acid.

From what you are describing it sounds like you are only going to want the paste so no need to dilute, or if you do, then very little. What an awesome use of liquid soap. The glycerine method makes for easier dilution, it has nothing to do with requiring not requiring neutralizing as the laws of chemistry still apply.

You sequester your liquid soap to allow for settling and clearing not to complete saponification as that is complete when you finish cooking.

 

[cmzaha]

The Moroccan soap paste I have seen is much softer than the paste I get when I make my Castile pomace paste. In soap calc I superfat -5 and water at 80%. Since you are not diluting and need not worry about clarity I would certainly superfat, and wonder if it will contribute to making a softer paste. Upping the water may make the paste softer also. You also do not need to neutralize and to neutralize a paste after cook would be difficult. When I make soap paste I warm the oils and bing my batter to a very very thick trace while on low heat in a stainless steel pan. I then remove it from the heat cover with a towel and lid then let it sit until it gels and forms a paste. Then it goes in the oven at 170 degrees for a few hours to cook. I am going to play with this and see if I can make a softer paste. I do know almond oil makes soft paste but that does not help you! Good luck to you with this. I can almost guarantee they are not using a glycerin method.

 

[Lindy]

What about adding extra water before gel?

 

[MzMolly65]

Well .. the soap made it's own decision. I left it in the pot for a few more hours and then turned it off one more time. This time it didn't harden, so I packaged it up and checked it the next morning. It has started to gel.

I really have no idea why this batch acted so funny compared to the first batch but I guess I just have to let the soap tell me what's going on and trust the process even if sometimes it takes a lot longer.

 

[cmzaha]

I would really like to see an update and know if your soap softened similiar to the Moroccan soap paste. I think I am going to try a pomace oo with 90% water and see what happens. I usually make my paste with 80% in soap calc. MzMolly, it always fascinates me when I make two identical batches with same fo, water discount etc and one will behave and the other not. I always tell my hubby soap does what soap does and it is what it want to do. With your 8% superfat it should be a great soap paste

 

[MzMolly65]

I would really like to see an update and know if your soap softened similiar to the Moroccan soap paste. I think I am going to try a pomace oo with 90% water and see what happens. I usually make my paste with 80% in soap calc. MzMolly, it always fascinates me when I make two identical batches with same fo, water discount etc and one will behave and the other not. I always tell my hubby soap does what soap does and it is what it want to do. With your 8% superfat it should be a great soap paste

It did soften and the first batch, made several weeks ago is gelling nicely so I suspect this one will too with a little time. Right now it still looks opaque.

I'll take some pics when it starts to gel enough to see the difference.

 

[engblom]

I'm definitely no expert on liquid soap, but I have made a 100% castille soap and it came out very nice.

You don't want to superfat a liquid soap. If you're worried about it being lye heavy, use at most 1-2% superfat. Otherwise, it won't "work". Generally, liquid soap is made with a slight excess of KOH, to ensure that all free fatty acids are neutralized. You neutralize it (well, not to neutral but to a lower pH) later when you dilute.

I diluted the paste to make liquid soap, but you can store the paste if you want. Catherine Failor's book would be a great resource for you, as it has all the hows and whys of liquid soap and gel making.

A bit cloudy soap is normally no problem, even many commercial soaps are a bit cloudy.

I am always superfatting my liquid soap and I have never had a problem so far. This is how I do:

I mix the oil(s) and lye (KOH) solution until I have a thick trace. Water reduction is needed for Castile, or you will burn up your mixer. Then I either insulate the whole sauce pan to get it to gel without external heat or I put the oven on low temperature and put the saucepan there to gel.

When the soap has been gelling properly I consider it as ready to use (as you would do with any bar soap). The advantage is that I do not need to wait for it to dry. For Castile I mix 1 third paste with third of water. From there I might do small adjustments.

 

[MzMolly65]

I would really like to see an update and know if your soap softened similiar to the Moroccan soap paste.

Pics as promised .. and for comparison

the store bought version first (I don't know how they get it so dark .. someone suggested they use black olive oil but I checked the colour of that and it's the same colour as pomace so I don't think that's it .. but you never know)

my first batch after a few weeks of curing time

My second batch straight out of the pot

A day later you can see the gel beginning (the dark blob spots)

 

[MzMolly65]

Fwiw ... and this might be TMI for some ... my DH commented that he's been using the first batch in the shower to *cough* shave his man bits *cough*. He says he loves it! He says it's sticky enough it doesn't wash off during the shave and it's slippery enough for a really good shave .. nuff said ..

 

[Lindy]

Roflol

 

[Hazel]

MzMolly -

I hope I don't offend you but your comment made me laugh. Thanks, I needed one.

 

[MzMolly65]

Hi all .. I've been away from the list for ages and hardly making any soap but once in a while I still churn out a batch or two.

I wanted to reopen this old thread and show you some photos of this paste soap and how it all worked out.

In 2013 I wanted to reverse engineer this soap based on the traditional ingredients found on the packages. It only had 3 ingredients on the package; olive oil, KOH and water .. but it wasn't a liquid soap, it was a thick paste so I came to this forum looking for all your advice. *I* wasn't using it as soap, I was using it for a plaster process called Tadelakt.

Well .. I fell down the soaping rabbit hole for quite a while and while I made a lot of different soaps the funny thing is I never did make any Tadelakt. (if you don't have a clue what I'm talking about please go back to the beginning of this thread and read it all the way through to catch up.)

Anyway .. fast forward to 2017. I am STILL using some of the original batch of paste. I still love it. Interestingly enough and the reason I popped back in .. I made a 2nd batch but low and behold it turned all kinds of weird moldy. I'm pretty sure I made the 2nd batch identical to the first.

I stored the 2nd batch in 2 different types of containers ..
1st container was round plastic with simple push on lid and it grew weird round gellish lumps of mold throughout the paste
2nd container was rectangular plastic with 4 lock - snap on lid and it grew hard crystal like coating on the top of the paste

when you look at the pictures, keep in mind this is the exact same batch of soap, stored in the same place, for the same amount of time. The only thing different between the two soaps is the container and the mold.

There is also a picture of the good soap from the very first, original batch that I am still using 4 years after making it.

 

[cmzaha]

It is funny that you popped back in after all this time. I had been wondering how your original paste turned out for you plastering projects.

Wow, this one is really really ugly. Wonder if the original was cooked longer or if you used higher water. I have never had paste go moldy but have had diluted LS go moldy

 

[DeeAnna]

Hey, hi there, girlfriend -- been a long time, and I've missed ya!

The whitish "moldy" things in the round container look like they're firmer than the amber/brown paste. A few are even sticking out above the brownish soap paste. I wonder if they're lumps of fat or fatty acids that have crystallized out or something. Since the rectangular paste has "...hard crystal like coating on the top of the paste..." that makes me wonder even more.

 

[SaltedFig]

Hey, hi there, girlfriend -- been a long time, and I've missed ya!

The whitish "moldy" things in the round container look like they're firmer than the amber/brown paste. A few are even sticking out above the brownish soap paste. I wonder if they're lumps of fat or fatty acids that have crystallized out or something. Since the rectangular paste has "...hard crystal like coating on the top of the paste..." that makes me wonder even more.

I thought the same, especially with it precipitating.

Possible tests? Maybe taking a piece and squishing it - fat/fatty acid would be maleable whereas a mould-based something would tend to be more brittle?

 

[MzMolly65]

You know what .. I just remembered. I didn't make batch #2 identical to batch #1. Batch #2 had actual black olive pulp in it because I was trying to match that really dark version I saw the plasterers using and someone from Morocco told me their soap had pulp included in it.

I am about to make a third batch, since batch number 2 went pear shaped and I'm down to the last dregs of batch #1. I'm pretty sure I'll stick to straight oil this time and pass on the olive pulp.

Hopefully it will be as good as batch #1 and since it's being made for human use and not Tadelakt AND since I had mold in batch #2, I'll put preservative in this one.

Nice to see you as well DeeAnna and everyone else too, looks as though everyone's been busy making soap!

 

[cmzaha]

:bunny:

 

[MzMolly65]

Hi All, back again! It took forever to get around to it but tomorrow I'm finally going to make my third batch of Beldi. Technically I can't call it Beldi anymore because I'm not following a traditional recipe and I'm not adding any olive meat. I'm also going to add a preservative since I had that mold issue with the 2nd batch.

Also, since I'm not going to call it Beldi anymore I wondered about using the same recipe with a different oil. I have tons of RBO and Pomace OO so I ran two recipes through soap calc. The numbers are quite different in some areas and I am hoping someone could take a minute to have a look and give me some feedback on what it all means.

The OO version was fantastic in batch #1 and I really loved it. Would the RBO version be an improvement or make a mess of it?

Thanks in advance for any opinions and advice.

View attachment doc20180128083505.pdf

 

[earlene]

Well, I made 2 different 100% RBO soaps back in July of 2017 and just compared the two with a hand washing test. One was with vinegar to make it harden up faster and one was without vinegar. No added sugar to help with bubbles, just the RBO and some EDTA & ROE to prevent DOS. Both made with 0% SF and CPOP to encourage gel because I was soaping on the cool side.

At six months, they are both about equally hard. Pretty darn hard, I'd say. There is a little difference tiny difference in the bubbling up of the soap. The non-vinegar bar bubbles up more quickly than the bar made with vinegar. Both keep and maintain the bubble and a nice lather throughout handwashing. The lather builds and becomes more creamy as I wash.

So if you are thinking on making a 100% RBO recipe, to replace a 100% OO recipe, I think you will be happy with it.

ETA: Oops, I made bar soap. You are thinking of liquid soap. My bad! I have no idea how RBO works as a LS.

 

[SaltedFig]

I've got a similar clear, stable gel (that I like very much) with the oleic down to 58 (combination oil recipe).
The saturated to unsaturated ratio of my recipe closely matched the RBO, but the palmitic is more like that of olive oil.
I don't use RBO and can only guess that the palmitic in the RBO might cause it to crystallize, but there's nothing like trying it to know!