Introduction and Castile paste

[MzMolly65]

I'm uncertain what's happening. I read through my instructions several times just to make sure I've done things right. It seems like I have but it's still not right. There is the option, after hard stage to heat the mixture in either a double boiler or a crock on low for several hours until it gels rather than letting it gel through ripening for 4 weeks, although the ripening choice is the traditional way to make this.

Since it hardened last night I decided to put it back in the crock pot and then since it was late I decided to let it sit in the crock on low and gel (the fast option). I came back to goopy, fuzzy pudding. Still no gel. Tested a blob in boiling water and it's foggy.

Any suggestions as to what's going on? Or what I should do now? Just because I don't know what else to do with it for now, I put it in a sealed container and insulated it (the slow, ripening way suggestion)

 

[whitetiger_0603]

OK, I'm still uncertain of exactly what is going on here. Did you make true Castile Olive oil soap, or did you buy it? Are you trying to dilute to a liquid or use it in paste form?

 

[Lin]

I didn't think it gels through the "ripening" stage, from your descriptions it sounded like their process is a combination between hot process and cold process soap making. In hot process the heat accelerates saponification, which is the process of the lye and oil going through the chemical change that produces a salt (soap). In cold process soap making, you leave the soap alone and give it time to saponify which can take a few days to complete (or even a week) until there is no lye left. Gel is a phase that occurs as the result of heat. It CAN happen during cold process because the saponification process releases heat, and if it produces enough heat and the heat stays long enough the soap will partial gel or full gel. But gel itself is not a requirement or a stage that always exists in soap making. You can avoid gel or encourage gel if you want.

Its possible for you to have missed the gel stage when you put it back into the crock pot when it was already at the hard stage. Since you superfatted to 8% (I'm assuming you did since thats what was discussed earlier) you're not going to end up with a completely clear product. Its clear when all of the oils have saponified by the lye, superfatting is including MORE oils than will be fully saponified by the lye.

Was your post always in this forum? haha. I could have sworn it was in the introduction section before. Maybe I'm confusing it with another post! I'm really hoping some experts will chime in because they can help much more than me. Can you post a photo of what the soap looks like right now? That should help.

 

[Lin]

whitetiger, she made the soap. She's trying to duplicate a specific method for a form of castile soap thats used in a plaster art. If you go back to the beginning of the thread it will make sense.

 

[MzMolly65]

Here's pics of the various stages. It was only a tiny batch to get my feet wet.
Trace

Stiff

Fluffy

Looks like starting to gel

 

[MzMolly65]

Fwiw .. these are pics of the various finished products (not mine)

 

[green soap]

It looks like you are getting the result you intended. If it does not work out quite as you wanted, two things to consider: more water and less than 100% olive oil.

As I mentioned previously, you seem to be using less than half the water that is usually recommended for liquid soap paste (based on KOH). The other consideration is that making KOH soap with pure olive oil is a lot harder than when mixing in some coconut oil. Even 20% CO 80% OO will make a big difference in the process. Olive oil only liquid soap is actually quite difficult. That is for diluted liquid soap though, it might be different for your application. Still, since your original recipe called for less than 100% OO, there might be something to it. So if I was you and trying this again I would double the water and use a 25% - 75% coconut oil - olive oil ratio.

 

[MzMolly65]

Still, since your original recipe called for less than 100% OO, there might be something to it. So if I was you and trying this again I would double the water and use a 25% - 75% coconut oil - olive oil ratio.

That was the only recipe I could find but the product I purchased was 100% OO so I tried to replicate that. I was combining the recipe ratios (35% water) with the desire for 100% OO.

ETA: I don't know how coconut oil would effect the plaster but my friend has found some info that suggests other cultures mimic the Moroccan Tadelakt using other ingredients .. sooooo .. maybe it's another experiment to try.

 

[whitetiger_0603]

That was the only recipe I could find but the product I purchased was 100% OO so I tried to replicate that. I was combining the recipe ratios (35% water) with the desire for 100% OO.

ETA: I don't know how coconut oil would effect the plaster but my friend has found some info that suggests other cultures mimic the Moroccan Tadelakt using other ingredients .. sooooo .. maybe it's another experiment to try.

Ok, i read and re-read this whole thread and I'd like to offer my assistance if that's ok. i'm still kind of confused as to what is going on, but i think i have a slight idea.

If you want to still go with straight OO, go for it. Persoanlly, I think using percentages, while i know plenty of soapers use them, is a bit..confusing to say the least. Just go for a simple lye calculator, preferably from Brambleberry or Summer Bee Meadow, and enter the amount of oils you want to use, and make sure you check the spot for KOH, not NaOH. And no superfat. You're using this for an art project, so I can't imagine you needing extra moisture provided by superfatting. But that is your choice of course. These calculators are programmed to acount for the impurities in KOH so they are the most accurate for liquid soap, that I've seen so far.The Brambleberry calculator is by far the simplest of the 2 to use. Now, from my personal experience, I've seen that adding a little glycerine helps speed things up quite quickly. I usually make large batches, 7lbs, so i use 4oz of glycerine added to the oils to heat up. You can use less of course. Glycerine is already a natural byproduct of soap, so the little extra really won't affect your final outcome. Castile soap goes through a slow sap process and will look like runny mashed potatoes for a good bit before things move along to the next phase. To also help things along, you need lots of heat. 170-200 degrees. Heat is key in liquid soap making. That, and the contant movement from stirring, so keep your stick blender going as long as you can without burning it out. Now i don't know if the extra glycerine causes this, as it's only happened with my last soaping session, but the soap will souffle. And it can get pretty big. So when you start to seep your mixture rise, cut the heat and if you can remove the pot from the source. Cap it and if your crock has a gasket seal on the lid like mine, push down on the lid to help seal in. My soaps literally tried to volcanoe out last time..actually it did with my first batch in my last session. So I capped it tight and held on to keep from over flowing the second batch. If none of this horrific episode happens to you like it did me, good on you. Maybe it just was the mixture of oils i was using..it was pretty complex. I honestly don't think Castile soap will do this, but I warned you, justi n case. So lots of heat, and stirring. When you get to trace, cut the heat down; depending on your crock, it may be going from 4 hour to 8 hour cooking time. Or from high to warm. Continue stirring every 30 minutes to an hour, for 3 hours. After that, it should be done, then you can allow to cook longer or remove it from the pot then dilute if that's what you need to do. The biggest visual indicator that it's done is the transluscent stage of the past.

And the first video i ever saw that made sense to me and got me started in soap making:
[ame]http://youtu.be/oQQU4ltkqJ8[/ame]

Like the rest, I'm no expert. I don't think there is such a thing in our hobby. But liquid soap is all I do, so I'm always researching techniques to improve. I hope I helped a little, or at least added something useful to this thread.

 

[Feather]

It soaks into the first few millimeters of the plaster and waterproofs it. They use it for bathroom walls, tubs, sinks, etc. I want to use it for birdbaths and outdoor furniture made from a cement base, then plastered with Tadelakt.

Interesting application. I was reading a while about it. When the lime plaster starts to lose its waterproofing abilities, more liquid soap is applied. If the item/wall is often wet, the soap is applied every 6 months. If the item/sink is used daily, the soap is reapplied once a month.

It reminds me of the process of candying fruit peels, the sugar water solution is repeated until the fruit peels are saturated with sugar and it has replaced all the water in the peel. The lime plaster is saturated with the soap and it provides a water proof like seal. Very neat stuff. What is really interesting, is that the water will leach out the soap little by little, but, it is cleaning as well. So no matter whether you spend lots of time and money on cleaning solutions for newer installations of plastic, caulk, tile, porcelain, the soap and lime plaster create their own cleaning solution.

I agree with whitetiger--whether you use glycerine in the beginning of the process or not, you've got glycerine in your soap, so it may not matter.
I'm of the mind that it doesn't matter if you use a pure olive oil solution or a solution of coconut oil and olive oil, you'll still have a soap solution and you'll have a good tadelakt product. Ultimately it will be, lime plaster saturated with glycerine/soap to achieve a long lasting finish with minor upkeep.

 

[MzMolly65]

okey dokey .. so a week after potting up the goo I look at it and it's slowly turning from an opaque paste to a clear gel. I zap tested it and no zap so I decided to try my "tadelakt" soap in the bath (gosh don't I wish I had a Moroccan steam bath like was intended).

Soap doesn't smell pretty but doesn't stink either .. basically no surprise it smells like OO. It goes on pasty, rubs in easy, rinses off super clean, water is slightly milky .. skin is squeaky but not dry, tub not oily.

However, I did notice a tingly feeling after the bath. (ETA: I did NOT use a scrubby) Is this normal for this type of soap or is this something I should be worried about?

I have a Tadelakt friend that I have promised a sample and she also wants to try it in the bath before she tries it on her plaster but she has psoriasis and I don't want her to risk something that might hurt her. (my own skin I'm willing to risk)

Any thoughts folks?

 

[whitetiger_0603]

Did you hot process or cold process? Hot process speeds along the curing time that saponifies all Lye, and makes it usable almost immediately . Cold process requires weeks to cure.

 

[MzMolly65]

Did you hot process or cold process? Hot process speeds along the curing time that saponifies all Lye, and makes it usable almost immediately . Cold process requires weeks to cure.

I believe what I did qualifies as hot process. It was in the crock pot several hours on high and all day on low.

 

[whitetiger_0603]

I believe what I did qualifies as hot process. It was in the crock pot several hours on high and all day on low.

Yup that's hot process. Then if it's a week later, it should be Neutralized. Can't explain the tingle. Each persons skin reacts to pure soap differently. Some people with skin conditions will see that the condition gets worse before it's better when they first try real soap.

 

[MzMolly65]

Then if it's a week later, it should be Neutralized.

Someone told me that because it's superfatted it didn't need to be neutralized. Does that also mean it was safe to use as soon as it was taken out of the crock pot or did it still need to sit for a week or more before being used?

 

[Feather]

Someone told me that because it's superfatted it didn't need to be neutralized. Does that also mean it was safe to use as soon as it was taken out of the crock pot or did it still need to sit for a week or more before being used?

Is it neutralized or not? That is the question. To be or not to be.:lolno:

Well first, when you put the recipe in the soap calculator, is it superfatted or not. You have to think of the lye, the impurities of it taking up a certain percent, you have to think of the lye calculator, what impurities does it actually 'calculate out'. To be neutralized it must have exact right number of oil molecules to dance with the exact number of lye molecules so that every lye molecule gets used. If you superfatted, every single lye molecule was used.

My opinion is that it *should* be done or almost done if you've HP'ed it, test it by zap testing it or by PH. So touch your tongue to it, is it *nothing* or is it *uncomfortable*. When it is done it should be *nothing*.

 

[MzMolly65]

Is it neutralized or not? That is the question. To be or not to be.:lolno:

My opinion is that it *should* be done or almost done if you've HP'ed it, test it by zap testing it or by PH. So touch your tongue to it, is it *nothing* or is it *uncomfortable*. When it is done it should be *nothing*.

What I say? I say it was superfatted at 8% and didn't zap me .. so it was neutralized and must be safe to use .. but I knew that because my skin didn't peel off in the tub, LOL!

My concern was the tingly feeling because I know OO doesn't tingle so then I was worried about the lye content. It's beginner jitters and the fear of sending some to a friend and maybe hurting them.

It's so exciting to say I used a soap I made, LOL!

 

[Feather]

My best guess says you made soap too, beginner jitters or not! How cool is that?

It's like this, there is a scene in "Cast Away" with Tom Hanks. He finally figures out how to make fire. He dances around the fire and he says "look what I have created I have made fire", then he sings "Come on baby light my fire". [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUDEjulbqzk[/ame]

There should be a movie with a soap clip with some actor, MAKING SOAP, "see what I have made, I have made soap", then the soap maker dances in the shower with their new soap and sings "A song about soap", but, see, there is no good song about soap, so we wallow in our suds without fame or fortune. Oh the life of a soapmaker.

PS. Congrats!:clap::clap::clap:

 

[Lindy]

Saponification in CP happens after it is in the mould and takes up to 3 days depending on whether you gel or not. Gelled soap saponifies much quicker. HP is saponified when you take it out and mould because you are using heat to force saponification.

From page 5 of Scientific Soapmaking by Kevin Dunn:

Oil saponifies faster at high temperature than at low temperatures. Because the saponfication reaction releases heat, it is often sufficient to simply insulate a large mold. The heat released warms the soap enough that the reactions proceeds apace

Trace does not signify saponification although I will agree that it has begun at that point. It is also why with HP saponification is complete at the end of the process.

Liquid soap is saponified immediately as well but unlike HP it is okay to use right away. You put it away for a couple of weeks to allow it to clear.

Cream soap is saponified at completion when you put it to rest (rot) but takes several months to become mild enough to use.

 

[Feather]

There are two ways to speed a chemical reaction, mixing (hand mixer), and heating, both facilitate saponification.