How much ground oatmeal, how much colloidal oats, what lye concentration?

[akseattle]

I'd like to make some soap to compare how finely ground oatmeal might feel in comparison to colloidal oats.
But, it has to be cured (or reasonably cured) by August 9 -- because I am getting together with my sisters and I want them to help me compare.
I know that is cutting it pretty close. But, I'm thinking if I use a little less water, it will cure faster. Recently, I made a batch and it's possible that the combination of FO and oatmeal caused pretty rapid acceleration and a bar that was a little crumbly. I can't say for sure it was the oatmeal.

But, I'm wondering how much ground oatmeal for a 5 oz bar, and how much colloidal oats for a 5 oz bar?
What would be a good lye concentration if the recipe is 24% tallow, 15% lard, 20% coconut, 29% olive oil, 8% castor oil, and 4% Shea butter?
I will use 4% FO concentration of an FO I know to be well behaved. The batch will have goatmilk powder, too.

I could also make a slightly bigger batch so that I can set aside 400 grams of batter for my experiment if that makes it easier to give guidance. So, 200 grams could be for the colloidal oats and 200 grams could be for the finely ground oatmeal.

Other than using less water, and knowing that castile soap takes a longer time to cure as it is mostly OO, I haven't really thought about whether my recipe (or its minor variations) are fast curing or slow curing. Does anyone have any suggestions for my comparison soaps that need to be done by August 9?

 

[Nona'sFarm]

I use a tablespoon of colloidal oats per pound of oil. Though I have never used powdered oatmeal, for a comparison I would use the same amount.
Your recipe above is only 29% OO, so will not take a significantly long time to cure.
If you are not planning any designs with your soap, then a 40% lye concentration will have less water and a 4 week cure time should be sufficient.
I'd be interested in what others had to say as well.

 

[dibbles]

I also use 1 tablespoon PPO. I agree with @Nona'sFarm regarding 40% lye concentration. One other thing I would add is to either leave the bars unscented or use the same fragrance. I think when testing soaps, non makers will subconsciously let the fragrance sway them when the soap qualities are very similar. It will be interesting to hear what your sisters/family think.

 

[ewhitake]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t colloidal oats just finely ground non quick cooking oatmeal?

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t colloidal oats just finely ground non quick cooking oatmeal?

Colloidal oats have additional processing steps. Here's the process provided by Making Cosmetics:

"Oat grains are cleaned and de-hulled to yield the groats which then are cut to reduce their size. The groats are steam-heat treated for stabilization and to reduce free fatty acids, destroy bacteria and prepare the groat for rolling, flake integrity and proper water holding. The oats are then flattened and pulverized to the desired particle size resulting in colloidal oatmeal."

 

[ewhitake]

Thanks for this. As soon as I posed the question I found the post below. The discussion got quite heated but in the end I think it doesn’t matter whether you use colloidal, wheat flower or coffee ground oatmeal as long as your label isn’t misleading you’re probably getting the same benefits. Which is what matters

Thread 'Make your own 'colloidal oatmeal' for a fraction of the cost'
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/thr...dal-oatmeal-for-a-fraction-of-the-cost.90147/

 

[Mobjack Bay]

as your label isn’t misleading you’re probably getting the same benefits. Which is what matters

By "isn't misleading," I assume you mean the label should state ground oats or oats, rather than colloidal oats. It's important to note the difference and make a distinction. Whole oats that are ground in a coffee grinder will never be as fine as pulverized colloidal oats. A customer who is accustomed to using commercial colloidal oat soap may be unpleasantly surprised to discover how rough a soap with ground oats can be.

 

[AliOop]

By "isn't misleading," I assume you mean the label should state ground oats or oats, rather than colloidal oats. It's important to note the difference and make a distinction. Whole oats that are ground in a coffee grinder will never be as fine as pulverized colloidal oats. A customer who is accustomed to using commercial colloidal oat soap may be unpleasantly surprised to discover how rough a soap with ground oats can be.

100% agree. Also, as noted by a few here who have added home-ground oats to their soap, those will absorb a LOT more water than colloidal oats. That absorption really affects the viscosity of your soap batter, to the point that it can ruin the batch if you don't compensate for that. In contrast, colloidal oats incorporate so well that they appear to dissolve, with no discernible effect on viscosity of the lye solution or the soap batter.

While the consumer may not be aware of all that, the soapmaker really must take all that into consideration, or risk failed batches. So @ewhitake I must respectfully disagree that the results will be the same either way. While the benefits of oats may carry through either way, the overall experience is not the same for the maker, or the user.

 

[ewhitake]

By "isn't misleading," I assume you mean the label should state ground oats or oats, rather than colloidal oats. It's important to note the difference and make a distinction. Whole oats that are ground in a coffee grinder will never be as fine as pulverized colloidal oats. A customer who is accustomed to using commercial colloidal oat soap may be unpleasantly surprised to discover how rough a soap with ground oats can be.

Absolutely!! You never want to mislead. What I was trying to say was that for some, the benefits of oatmeal regardless of the type will always be in their product. I guess aome people are not that discerning @AliOop. And good tip about the absorption issues with ground oats vs colloidal oats. I’ve added ground oats to soap and didn’t notice the need for additional liquid. But then I’m a new soaker I’m always learning something when engaging on this forum!!

 

[AliOop]

I’ve added ground oats to soap and didn’t notice the need for additional liquid.

Much depends on how finely the oats are ground, how much is used, and of course, the lye concentration. The results will be very different as some or all of those variables are changed.

Most home grinders and sieves aren't going to achieve anything close to the texture of colloidal oats, and will leave scratchy stuff in soap. But then we have folks like @Mobjack Bay, who has access to screens and sieves used for scientific purposes, and has shared her great experiments using those to isolate color compounds from various clays. I have no doubt that she could make colloidal oats if she set her mind to it!

 

[ewhitake]

Much depends on how finely the oats are ground, how much is used, and of course, the lye concentration. The results will be very different as some or all of those variables are changed.

Most home grinders and sieves aren't going to achieve anything close to the texture of colloidal oats, and will leave scratchy stuff in soap. But then we have folks like @Mobjack Bay, who has access to screens and sieves used for scientific purposes, and has shared her great experiments using those to isolate color compounds from various clays. I have no doubt that she could make colloidal oats if she set her mind to it!

FYI - I just bought some colloidal oats from Camden Grey. I'm excited to experiment!

 

[AliOop]

FYI - I just bought some colloidal oats from Camden Grey. I'm excited to experiment!

Their GOB sale is pretty good - I have my eye on some EOs.

 

[justsomeguy]

Their GOB sale is pretty good - I have my eye on some EOs.

I'm looking forward to the lavender absolute I got

 

[AliOop]

Apparently I missed out on the colloidal oats and carrot seed oil, but I managed to get some clary sage, cajeput, myrrh, vetiver (dark), and marjoram, as well as violet absolute. Mostly small quantities because even on sale, WHEW.

 

[BritS]

I grind oats to what essentially looks like a powder. I tend to add them at 1% of my oil weight. That has worked out really well for me. It’s plenty of scrubby action, and I haven’t noticed the need for additional water.

 

[akseattle]

Thank you everyone. I made my soap and now, I just have to wait and get feedback from my sisters!

@Nona'sFarm and @dibbles , I was dividing up my batter when I realized that when you said "one Tablespoon of colloidal oats per pound of oil" you meant, the oil BEFORE mixing with the lye water . So, I probably used a little MORE than I should have used for these additives ... I used 1 1/2 teaspoons per 200 grams of batter.
Being the chicken that I am, instead of using 40% lye concentration, I used 38% lye concentration. I should have used the 40% lye concentration because it was fine. I did a hanger swirl with my loaf and still had plenty of time for my oat experiment.

@dibbles, that was a good suggestion to use the SAME fragrance oil. I did that. I used Crafter's Choice Oatmeal, Milk & Honey Original. (which I have to say- doesn't really smell like oatmeal, milk OR honey to me!!) In order to distinguish the colloidal oat bar from the ground oatmeal bar, I used pink mica in one and green mica in the other. Today, I surfed the internet looking at photos of oatmeal / colloidal oatmeal bars. All were somewhere between a tan color and up to a darker brown color. So, I regret my color choice. It detracts from the nature of the bar.

But, one thing I observed surfing the internet is that practically every bar I looked at, even if they said they used colloidal oats, had some oats/ oat pieces/ visible somewhere on the bar. This tells me that those who sell soap, think consumers are more persuaded of the benefit of colloidal oatmeal (or any kind of oat) if they can see the ingredient. My ground oatmeal bar has little tiny beige/brown specks. My colloidal oats are SO finely ground, I don't see evidence of the colloidal oats visible on the outside of the bar.

So, @ewhitake , we'll see how discerning my sisters are!! if they can't see the oat, will they feel its presence?

I'm on the edge of my seat awaiting the results!! I'm curious to see what you think after you have a chance to compare your soaps using the two different ingredients.

 

[ewhitake]

I am too!! I rebound my oats into a finer powder, with no bits visible and made some soap. Now I’m waiting on my order of colloidal oats to compare. I don’t have sisters but I do have sons. Let’s see whose the more discerning

 

[AliOop]

This tells me that those who sell soap, think consumers are more persuaded of the benefit of colloidal oatmeal (or any kind of oat) if they can see the ingredient.

Or it might be that the seller wanted to keep costs low by using home-ground oats.

I’ll be interested to hear whether either of you feel any scratchiness from the home-ground oats. I’ve never been able to get a grind that was fine enough to achieve that. Perhaps it is time for me to buy a new grinder and some fine sieves. Because I don’t really have enough gadgets, er, tools for the craft, in my house already.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

The key word in the Making Cosmetics description of how colloidal oats are made is pulverized. In chemistry (and oceanography) parlance, [hydro] colloids are mixtures of insoluble microscopic particles distributed through water. The particles are so small that they don’t settle out of suspension. Milk and jello are examples of hydrocolloids.

 

[AliOop]

The key word in the Making Cosmetics description of how colloidal oats are made is pulverized. In chemistry (and oceanography) parlance, [hydro] colloids are mixtures of insoluble microscopic particles distributed through water. The particles are so small that they don’t settle out of suspension. Milk and jello are examples of hydrocolloids.

I just love your science lessons, @Mobjack Bay! Your reward is more questions

So, is the small particle size the reason that colloidal oats don’t feel scratchy, or the suspension, or both?