How important are the numbers?

Soapmaking Forum

Help Support Soapmaking Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Maybe RBO. I haven't used it much - don't know why as it's readily available and cheap.

I haven't found it in any stores near me, not even Wallyworld. Any hints or tips on where to look? And what general price level is cheap?

Update: I found a place online that is sort of like a Cabela's or Gander Mountain and they have a gallon of rice bran oil for $9.99, and S/H is about $6. It says it's 100% RBO, it's intended for frying--you know, like in those whole-turkey fryers. Is this a decent price if I don't plan to buy in bulk?
 
Last edited:
Yeah Avoiding animal fats too not that I'm vegetarian, but I have children with strong views, and one is vegan. I enjoy the challenge of making a nice soap that fits their 'niche'
 
I bought my rice bran oil from Soapers Choice (Columbus Foods) -- they're located in Chicago. But I think I've heard others mention RBO can be found in Asian markets or groceries in larger cities.
 
GreenEggsAndPam -- I can't speak from personal experience, but my understanding is, yes, some folks can still be sensitive to the coconut even when it's a soap.

For a harder AND longer-lived soap, look at adding fats higher in stearic and palmitic acids -- some possibilities include lard, tallow, palm, cocoa butter, shea butter, mango butter. Even rice bran oil and palm-based Crisco shortening will help.

Also, cure your soap well to evaporate as much moisture as possible before using it -- the drier the soap, the longer it will last.

Thanks for all of your information, DeeAnna. It is very helpful.

I went back and looked at the recipes for each of my soap batches, and sure enough the harder bars were in the 20's and the softer bars were in the teens for long lasting values. My harder bars have tallow, coconut, palm and shea butter, mainly for their hardness (and add'l) values, plus some olive and castor. Lots of different oils, yes, but I was trying for the 'perfect man bar'. LOL

Only problem is that my husband won't use his 'man bars' now; he says he will only use soap with clay in it. How funny is that? Now I have to add clay to everything... :)
 
I haven't found it in any stores near me, not even Wallyworld. Any hints or tips on where to look? And what general price level is cheap?

Update: I found a place online that is sort of like a Cabela's or Gander Mountain and they have a gallon of rice bran oil for $9.99, and S/H is about $6. It says it's 100% RBO, it's intended for frying--you know, like in those whole-turkey fryers. Is this a decent price if I don't plan to buy in bulk?

Try a restaurant supply. I buy 35 lbs for approx $40.
 
"...my husband won't use his 'man bars' now; he says he will only use soap with clay in it..."

<sigh> My DH has become fixated on pine tar soap. Any pine tar soap will do ... he's not picky about the recipe ... but it's gotta have pine tar in it.

I might as well not bother with any other type of soap, except most everyone else wrinkles up their nose at a pine tar bar and looks at me rather oddly. Even my chiropractor who is a back-to-the-earth type and is usually willing to try some oddball stuff. So I make other types of soap to make my friends happy, but pine tar rules at our abode.

I'm becoming a reluctant connoisseur of pine tar and the soap that is made from it. <sigh>
 
"...my husband won't use his 'man bars' now; he says he will only use soap with clay in it..."

<sigh> My DH has become fixated on pine tar soap. Any pine tar soap will do ... he's not picky about the recipe ... but it's gotta have pine tar in it.

I might as well not bother with any other type of soap, except most everyone else wrinkles up their nose at a pine tar bar and looks at me rather oddly. Even my chiropractor who is a back-to-the-earth type and is usually willing to try some oddball stuff. So I make other types of soap to make my friends happy, but pine tar rules at our abode.

I'm becoming a reluctant connoisseur of pine tar and the soap that is made from it. <sigh>

If no-one wants any of my 11 bars I know where to send them! :thumbup:
 
Note to self: avoid trying pine tar in my soap? lol

He likes the clay because he has thick skin, and it cleans it extra well. Doesn't even mind that it's rose clay. :)
 
"...If no-one wants any of my 11 bars I know where to send them!..."

Yep! :p

But I bet you'll find some takers, especially if you let the bars cure for several months. The smoky scent loses its burnt rubber tang and gets lighter and mellower with some age, although it will always have a "sitting around the campfire" aroma.

There is a bit of a silver lining to my pine tar cloud -- I'd swear pine tar increases the lather quite a bit and changes the texture of the lather in a nice way -- it's somewhere between the fluffy foam of coconut oil soap and the dense whipped-cream of lard/tallow soap. More like whipped egg whites. Very nice.
 
Sainthood???

I can't really explain what was going on when you were evaluating the effect of cocoa butter on your recipe -- I'd have to know more or be sitting next to you as you work for me to be able to help you understand the results you saw. All I can say is the SoapCalc numbers don't lie, but I concede they don't always tell us what we are expecting to hear. I'm going to share something I've been working on for awhile -- it may be helpful to you or it might not, but here goes:

I won't quote the entire thing, but I'm going to nominate you for soaping sainthood.

InNae
 
I can't really explain what was going on when you were evaluating the effect of cocoa butter on your recipe -- I'd have to know more or be sitting next to you as you work for me to be able to help you understand the results you saw. All I can say is the SoapCalc numbers don't lie, but I concede they don't always tell us what we are expecting to hear. I'm going to share something I've been working on for awhile -- it may be helpful to you or it might not, but here goes:

*********

When evaulating a soap recipe, you can look at the individual amounts of each fatty acid (myristic, lauric, stearic, palmitic, oleic, ricinoleic, linoleic, linolenic, etc) to determine the effect of each fatty acid on the soap ... or you can use the SoapCalc "numbers" to do much the same thing, only simpler. Problem is ... and I've said this elsewhere on SMF ... is that the names of the SoapCalc numbers are misleading. It is also important to remember that the fatty acid profile and the SoapCalc numbers do not account for the effect of superfat nor the effect of additives (sugar, milk, honey, sodium lactate, etc.)

So, okay, now let's look at the numbers for at a single fat -- let's choose your cocoa butter and assume we're going to make a soap from this fat. Cocoa butter has a fatty acid profile that looks something like this:

Lauric 0
Myristic 0
Palmitic 25-35% (average is about 30%)
Stearic 28-38% (average is about 33%)
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 29-41% (average is about 36%)
Linoleic 2-7% (average is about 4%)
Linolenic 0

Lots of numbers, right? Let's look at how SoapCalc groups those numbers into fewer bits of useful information:

Hardness 61
Cleansing 0
Condition 38
Bubbly 0
Creamy 61

So now, okay, how does a person translate from the fatty acid profile to the Soapcalc numbers? Here's how:

Hardness: The hardness value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic + Palmitic + Stearic acids.

These are the saturated fatty acids. The Hardness number is a measure of the physical hardness-like-a-rock. It tells you how relatively easy it will be to unmold a particular soap after saponification. The Hardness number does NOT tell you how hard the soap will be after cure -- for example, castile (100% olive oil) soap has a low hardness number, but is very hard after a good cure. The Hardness number also does NOT necessarily tell you how long-lived the soap will be -- I'll get to that in a bit.

Hardness number from the fatty acid profile (above) = 0% + 0% + 30% + 33% = 63%.
Soapcalc Hardness = 61%.

Is the difference between 63% and 61% important? Nope, not too much. Keep in mind that any fatty acid profile for any particular fat is only an estimate. The SoapCalc folks calculated their Hardness number from slightly different data than we are using. Bottom line -- don't agonize over differences of a few percentage points.

Cleansing: The cleansing value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic acids.

The cleansing number is a measure of how water soluble the soap is, meaning how easily the soap will dissolve and perform in difficult situations such as hard water, cold water, or salt water.

The Cleansing number does NOT tell you whether the soap will actually get your skin clean, which is the usual misinterpretation of the Cleansing number. A soap with a Cleansing value of zero will still clean your skin; it is just not as water soluble in hard/cold/salty water as a soap with a high Cleansing value.

Cleansing number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Cleansing = 0%

1/4/2015 update: Is it more important to have a high "conditioning" number or a low "cleansing" number when formulating a mild soap? And why? See this post for more: Numbers on soap bar quality

Conditioning: The conditioning value is the sum of Oleic + Ricinoleic + Linoleic + Linolenic acids.

These are the monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids. The conditioning value is, to the best of my understanding, a measure of the soap's ability to clean gently. A high conditioning number is not good for a laundry soap that needs to be an efficient cleanser, but it is appropriate in a soap made to clean delicate or sensitive skin.

Conditioning number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 36% + 4% + 0% = 40%
SoapCalc Conditioning = 38%

Bubbly: The Bubbly value is the sum of the Lauric + Myristic + Ricinoleic acids.

This is a measure of how much loose, fluffy lather is produced. A "bubbly" lather is produced quickly by a soap, but doesn't last long.

Remember that the first two fatty acids make a soap that is very soluble in water, so it makes sense that a soap that has a lot of these two fatty acids would make lots of lather, right?

Ricinoleic acid does not make soap that lathers well on its own, but combined with other fatty acids, it enhances the lather the other fatty acids produce. Does a low or zero Bubbly number mean the soap doesn't lather at all? Nope -- just that the soap might not have a lot of fluffy big bubbles.

Bubbly number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Bubbly = 0%

Creamy: The Creamy value is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic + Ricinoleic acids.

Palmitic and stearic are the fatty acids that produce lather that is fine textured (like whipped cream) and longer lived. Ricinoleic, as mentioned before, enhances lather, whether it be big, bubbly lather or dense, creamy lather.

Creamy number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Creamy number = 61%

Long life: The longevity of a soap is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic acids.

Palmitic and stearic acids create a soap that is relatively hard and relatively insoluble in water.

Long-lasting number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Long-lasting number = ???

I said I'd get back to this issue. SoapCalc numbers do not directly measure longevity. Many people confuse the Hardness number as being a measure of how long lived the soap is, but that is not strictly correct. If you are working in SoapCalc, the fastest way to estimate the Long-lasting number is this:

SoapCalc Long-lasting number = Hardness number - Cleansing number

For cocoa butter, it's a no-brainer -- the Hardness number is the same as the Long-lasting number. For a Coconut Oil soap, the story is quite different:

Hardness = 79
Cleansing = 67
Long-lasting = 79 - 67 = 12

Compare that to 63 for cocoa butter. Bottom line -- a coconut oil soap will not last nearly as long as a cocoa butter soap, all other things being equal.


Okay, whew, I quit for now!
I'm not exactly sure how I just stumbled across this, but wow! 😮😍

Thank you DeeAnna for posting this, I have to say I thought hardness was the hardness of the finished product, and that cleansing related to how well the soap would clean (or as I interpreted cleaning 'strip the skin of its natural oils')... so glad I read this, thanks again!
 
Back
Top