Honey I burnt the honey!

[Hilge]

Hi everyone! I decided to share a little honey adventure I just had, and maybe get some opinions about this.

So I got myself some lovely locally produced honey and wanted to try adding that so my 100% olive oil soap, since they say it will give better foaming and maybe even give some light scent and colour. I had never used honey before and read different ways to use it: some people add it at light trace, some mix it with little water and add in lye-oil combination before mixing, some add it to water with lye.

Because I wanted to use quite a lot of honey, I decided to go with the last option and tried to figure it in to the recipe. They say honey is 80 % water so I kept that in mind, discounted water and mixed the honey in to the cold water. I kept my bowl on top of frozen vegetable bag to keep it cool but when I started to add lye, the expected happened. The solution started to turn yellow, then orange, then blood red! It was amazing! Then it bubbled and fizzed, turned dark red, dark brown and eventually almost black. The scent wasn't very lovely but I decided to give this a try and mixed it with olive oil (I kept this quite cool too). The trace came quite quickly and looked good to me so I pourred it into the mould. The batter was caramel brown, delicious looking! What do you think, did the burnt honey spoil the whole thing or should I expect something to come out of this? :eh:

I wrapped it real good and try not to peek in until tomorrow. I'm always too impatient.... :lolno:

 

[summerflyy]

When I made my honey milk soap, I added honey directly to the lye solution (milk and lye). It turned red yes.

But there wasn't a burnt stench or anything and the soap turned out fine. But for your case, it turned black ......... If there isn't a burnt smell, it might be fine ? Anticipating your results !

 

[Susie]

I would not insulate with all that honey. You may end up with a crack, or worse, a volcano.

 

[Hilge]

Oh dear. Maybe I need to check it out after all.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...80 % water..."

No, you really have it backwards. Honey is only about 18% water and 82% sugars.

"...maybe even give some light scent and colour..."

Color, yes. Scent, no.

 

[Hilge]

Thanks DeeAnna! Oh no. Of course, now that I really think about it. Oops. Thanks for correcting. And actually, I took this fact from another tread about adding honey and it's your reply "Honey is about 80% water, give or take a bit. Soapcalc doesn't list it, because it doesn't have anything in it to saponify.

If using just a bit, you can just include it as an additive. If using a fair amount, include it in the water phase part of your recipe like you would any other watery liquid (milk, beer, etc.)" I think you meant sugar here too?

Anyway, my water amount wasn't discounted that much so hopefully the amount of water in honey will compensate a little.

 

[leeleetrue]

i've done a couple different soaps with honey, and i've never discounted water per se. i take a bit of the water i'd use for lye, and instead add that to dilute the honey, then add it at light trace and stir stir stir. i will say that in any soap i've made with honey, if i don't refrigerate it i end up with an ugly partial gel. and while it doesn't add a lot of fragrance, i'd say it does add a very subtle sweet smell. i use 1/2 oz per pound of soap

 

[DeeAnna]

Huh. I'm mystified. My apologies for the misinformation.

 

[Hilge]

Don't worry DeeAnna! The reader is always responsible for any info they read on the internet :mrgreen:

And anyway, the soap turned out ok! I just unmoulded and tried to cut a little to see how it behaves. The scent isn't honey, but I think it smells like... mmm.. a bit sweet, like fresh dough. Maybe the hole batch is still so fresh and warm.

Only problem seems to be the partial crumble when I cut I will post a picture in few minutes.

 

[Hilge]

 

[LuckyStar]

I learnt the hard way, never insulate soap when you add any sort of high sugar item...in fact i slap them in the fridge now lol

 

[HoneyLady]

Well, I'm going to add my $ 0.02 here, and remember that these days, it costs MORE to make a penny than it is actually worth, so you know what kind of value you are getting from me!

ALL my soaps contain beeswax and honey. I am a beekeeper, so this is my "niche". You do NOT need more than 1 Tablespoon of honey per pound of oils. I use less than that. It's the LAST thing I add, and I mix it with an equal amount of warm water. If you add more than that, you are simply wasting honey. Too much honey -- which is an "unsaponifiable", and it will separate out and leave a layer of sticky, lye-heavy muck in the mold.

Ask me how I know this. :roll:

It does add color. It does heat the batter. If I CPOP it, I get milk chocolate colored soap. I usually pop into the freezer right away. If you want honey SCENT, Sweetcakes makes a nice one that smells like the real thing, with OUT the odd almond, excess vanilla, or coconut notes some FOs have.

I have never had a volcano, but I have gone out of my way to avoid them, too.

I also do NOT recommend adding cheap, store brand honey to soap, ESPECIALLY if it is not from US sources. There are too many things that may be added to, or in the honey that you don't want. (I don't recommend it for ANYTHING, actually. Don't buy it, don't use it, and support your local beekeeper. )

None of the excellent things in honey -- enzymes, pollens, vitamins, etc. will survive the saponification process.

DeeAnna -- respecting your sources, research, etc., let me add that from a beekeeper's perspective, I think those sugar/water ratios you found are off. Here's why. Honey is an anaerobic product. It will not spoil. However, it CAN ferment if water is added. In the hive, the bees leave honey cells open until it has "cured" to no more than 18% water at the very most, before they "cap" it with a thin layer of wax, and it is ready for harvesting. Most beekeepers strive for honey with a water content of 10-15%, or less, to prevent fermentation. I am absolutely NOT a chemist, so I can't tell you if the sugars are suspended, dissolved, or whatever in the honey itself. Fermented honey is used to make mead.

Hilge, you are very fortunate to have a local honey source! By all means, use a bit in soap, but use the rest for eating! After all, that is why God invented biscuits, scones, cornbread, and hot-from-the-oven bread!

~HoneyLady~

 

[reinbeau]

I can't add anything else to ~~HoneyLady~~'s excellent response other than to say that as a beekeeper myself I cringe every time I read of anyone adding honey to the lye water. Please don't do that to good honey It's true that none of the goodness from the fresh local honey really comes through other than the scent, and I do think it adds its humectant property to the soap, but why burn it right off the bat? Add it at trace, at the amount advised above. I have never had any of my loaves volcano. I use honey in my tube mold all the time and it gels like crazy in there, but just turns to a lovely almost caramel tan, it never spurts out of the top (that's a joke, folks!!)

 

[Hilge]

Thanks HoneyLady and reinbeau! Very useful information I'm sorry I spoiled such good honey but luckily I still have two jars left! I will try another method next time.

 

[LunaSkye]

I considering everything, I think the soap came out nicely. I also love the advice from HoneyLady & reinbeau. I hope the soap meets your expectations.

 

[DeeAnna]

I'm a hobby beekeeper, and I know that honey has to be about 18% moisture or under to not ferment. And I make mead as well.

My statement that honey is 80% water was, plain 'n simple, a typo. I know better -- I just mis-spoke. I cannot, for the life of me, find that statement on SMF or elsewhere on the internet to correct it, but it was just a typo. I already apologized once for the error earlier on this thread. Can we let it go?

edit: I sound ungracious. I'm not. I'm embarrassed.

 

[HoneyLady]

DeeAnna :

{{{HUGS}}} !!

Hey, *I'm* sorry!! I was absolutely NOT trying or intending to slap you on the wrist. Ieye meslff niver mahke tyepohs ! You owe no apologies whatsoever!

I was interested in the science behind your data -- ratios of sugars, waters, etc. I know some of that varies with each bottle of honey, since the sugars depend somewhat on the nectar collected by the bees, and that's totally variable. What my bees collect in spring is not what they collect in summer, or next year, or in a rainy year, or a dry year, etc. This is also why LOCAL honey is such a treasure -- it has not been blended to be the same every time, like mega brands. And I *hate* it when I can't find a source of info I *just* had a minute ago. Grumble, mumble, growl!

I just wanted to offer some perspective from the other side of the coin, as it were, knowing what I know about how much water content I desire in harvested honey. Which is, of course, a completely different POV than a scientific, lab-experiment, one. Since I am severely math challenged, I was never allowed to take the interesting science courses. I've learned more chemistry through cooking, baking, and soap making than I ever learned in school.

It's all good, DeeAnna. Don't be embarrassed! We don't expect perfection from you -- then we'd have to expect it from ourselves. Yikes. We completely rely on you to explain the chemistry, physics, and math the rest of us are so clueless about ! :wave: :clap: I always feel proud of myself if I have something useful to contribute to a thread you've written on. "I'm smart, like DeeAnna!"

Really happy to know there are other beeks on this forum, too!
Luv, sweet tea & honey cake --

~HoneyLady~

 

[DeeAnna]

In hindsight, I was more sensitive and grumpy this morning than I would prefer to be.

Thank you for the hug and kind words, Honey Lady -- I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

I try to be a good hobby beek, so I dutifully read the beginning beekeeper books and Bee Culture magazine. "They" all say that honey when capped by the bees should be about 18% water, give or take a percent or two. "They" also say if you want to know for sure about the water content, then buy and learn to use a refractometer. I don't have a refractometer and don't plan to get one, so I just harvest honey the old fashioned way -- I look for mostly-capped honey to harvest, like it sounds you do, and hope for the best. So far so good!

Yes, my honey changes with the time of year and from year to year. It's usually lighter in color and flavor early on and becomes deeper flavored and almost citrusy later in the summer and fall. While I gather the retail market seems to want the light, sweet stuff (I don't sell), I prefer the later season honey on my toast and in my tea. A few years ago I was lucky enough to harvest a cup or so of goldenrod honey in the early fall. It was really unusual -- dark amber and almost gelatinous. Oooh, that was amazingly tasty stuff.

Which reminds me ... I need to check my bees in the next day or two. It's that time.

 

[HoneyLady]

DeeAnna is a beek too?!? Yay!

I am impressed! If there's another hobby addictive as soaping, it's bees! They are amazing!

Since I, personally, have never had a temperamental, moody, grumpy moment in my entire life (said the red-headed, dramatic Irish woman) I have no idea how something could bother you. * {sarcasm font } *

Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha!

I do not own a refractometer, either. (Or a wax melter, or a heating tank, or a lift truck, or a separate soaping studio, or . . .) Yes, I only harvest capped honey. I did once harvest some uncapped -- it does indeed ferment. Ahem. :roll: I also subscribe to BC, and find it a font of useful info. And great photos!

Thanks for beeing such a great resource for us on the Forum. We appreciate you.

Now can you explain what is actually happening when honey separates out of soap batter and makes that yucky layer? Is it a saturation issue, or an emulsification problem? I've had it happen more than once, so I wondered. My very scientific understanding of it is that several ingredients or mixtures are not playing well together and won't combine --but I don't know WHY. Sugars? Lye? Moon phase?

~HoneyLady~

 

[DeeAnna]

"...did once harvest some uncapped -- it does indeed ferment...."

Been there, done that. I happen to have a dehydrator so I put the wet honey in a shallow layer in a pan and dehydrated it (very low heat!) for a few hours. I stopped when the honey seemed about as syrupy as honey that I knew was "dry" enough. Worked pretty good. Even leaving it out in a shallow pan to dry at room temp might help too, especially if the humidity is low. I'm an otherwise very low tech beekeeper.

"...can you explain what is actually happening when honey separates out of soap batter and makes that yucky layer?..."

Um, yeah, I suppose I should get back to talking soap!

I'm not absolutely sure what you're seeing separate out is the honey specifically. It is probably a mixture of water, glycerin from the saponification, and some honey and any other additives you've used. The liquid will taste sweet as much due to the glycerin as to the honey, so sweetness is not proof that the liquid is specifically honey. The liquid might also be syrupy, somewhat like honey, due to some soap being dissolved in the liquid to act as a thickener. The liquid can be dark or brownish (kinda like honey), but the color is from impurities leached out of the fats during saponification. The old soap makers who made "boiled" soap remark that the "nigre" (excess water, glycerin, spent lye, salt, etc.) removed from boiled soap is usually dark and explained this is due to the impurities.

The honey should be well mixed with your other water phase ingredients by the time you pour the batter into the mold. There is nothing going on in the saponifying soap batter that I can think of that should cause ~just~ the honey to separate out. That would have to be some pretty fancy chemistry going on to make that happen.

Sugars can increase the rate of saponification, thus the temp of the soap batter can rise higher and faster than the same batter without added sugars. I know that emulsions are less stable as their temperature goes up. Soap batter is an emulsion that can break due to heat, insufficient mixing, etc. My thought, based on my experience, the fact that you are an experienced soaper, and my reading, is that the soap emulsion may be breaking down due to being too warm.

Some ideas to try if you haven't already -- use a tray/slab mold or individual molds rather than a loaf/log mold to minimize the temperature rise in the center of the soap. Elevate the mold on a cookie sheet and use a fan to cool the soap mold. Don't CPOP or insulate the mold. Pour when the soap is at a heavier trace than you have in the past, especially if you normally pour at a thin emulsion stage.