Todd Ziegler
Circle Z soaps
I would suggest that you make a master batch of your metabisulfite and then use it and add it to your oils.
Homemade Vanilla Stabilizer?
- Thread starter AliOop
- Start date
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Thank you to AliOop for posting the article in your OP & starting this thread, and thank you to glendam for posting your video and findings in your experiments. And thank you Todd for your generous sharing all of your experiments and findings. And thank you to Jersey Girl for finding & posting that information about the aka's for the chemicals in question & the ingredient list for the WSP VS. And to everyone else who contributed additional information along the way. It all helped me to work out what information to look for in developing a plan to do my own testing that I hope will complement what you all have already done, as well as to satisfy my own curiosity on this topic.
My trials for DIY Vanillin Color Stabilizing formula variants will start after my order from WSP comes, and quite possibly after Christmas because we are closing on a house for my son next week and I will be helping him move cross-country immediately thereafter.
After consulting with Todd & DeeAnna, I have a plan designed for doing 9 variants of formulas using these two chemicals (sodium metabisulfite; sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate) at different strengths, singly & in combination, plus a control and a comparison against BCN's VS.
The two factors that delayed my getting started was designing & fine-tuning a written plan and data collection methods & criteria, as well as the fact that other life events are ongoing. The latest delay has been that I decided to go with a fragrance oil that was readily available to most soap makers rather than the more limited availability of a made-to-order FO that most folks cannot, nor may never be able to get in the future. The FO I have chosen has a vanillin content of 9% and I bought enough of it to repeat this DIY Vanillin Color Stabilizer project a few times over. In other words, I ordered enough to get this done without running out. I hope I don't come to hate the FO! I will be using only one FO in my test project, as well as the same soap formula and no added colorants to make analysis easier use color saturation data.
I will not be repeating all of Todd's testing, but will be doing some other formulations in the process, as well as conducting periodic and long-term data collection. So it will be awhile before I report back with possibly conclusive results. I intend to follow this project through over the course of a year with follow up data collection for another year thereafter. However, I will post periodic progress & interim reports, perhaps on a monthly basis to start, with a 6-month interim report, first end-of-year report and follow-up in the second year for long-term results. Providing long-term data will hopefully show which of the 9 formulas provides longer term color inhibition.
Type of soap I will make for this project: Cold Process soap only.
What will not be included in this study: any other form of soap or B&B product; any possible ancillary contributing factors to color change inhibition (such as what any other chemicals or soap ingredients may contribute.)
In the meantime, folks, please remember to wear appropriate PPE when you work with these chemicals.
In my research to prepare for this project and in my written plan, I included not only PPE requirements for said chemicals, but also disposal requirements in the case that disposal is ever necessary, so you may want to take a look at that section on both MSD Sheets if you are going to be working with these chemicals yourself.
Below are 4 links that indicate PPE required for working with these two chemicals. If you are in the UK, you will need the EU equivalent (or better) for the masks/PPE. For our purposes, full skin protection is recommended, including boots, and N95 mask at minimum, and a well ventilated area and handling powder in such a way that dust is not bandied about. In fact, it is suggested that for high dust situations, dust particles be container under a ventilation hood. And caution must be taken to prevent animals and other humans from exposure.
https://tinyurl.com/y3jacpzyhttps://tinyurl.com/y6tmt6gchttps://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/639110O/3m-respirator-selection-guide.pdfhttps://www.nipissingu.ca/sites/default/files/2018-06/Disposable Face Mask Information.pdf
For also-known-as or synonyms or other names for these chemicals, should you need them here are some links:
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/chebi/searchId.do?chebiId=CHEBI:114786https://go.drugbank.com/salts/DBSALT002505https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Sodium-thiosulfate-pentahydrate
My trials for DIY Vanillin Color Stabilizing formula variants will start after my order from WSP comes, and quite possibly after Christmas because we are closing on a house for my son next week and I will be helping him move cross-country immediately thereafter.
After consulting with Todd & DeeAnna, I have a plan designed for doing 9 variants of formulas using these two chemicals (sodium metabisulfite; sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate) at different strengths, singly & in combination, plus a control and a comparison against BCN's VS.
The two factors that delayed my getting started was designing & fine-tuning a written plan and data collection methods & criteria, as well as the fact that other life events are ongoing. The latest delay has been that I decided to go with a fragrance oil that was readily available to most soap makers rather than the more limited availability of a made-to-order FO that most folks cannot, nor may never be able to get in the future. The FO I have chosen has a vanillin content of 9% and I bought enough of it to repeat this DIY Vanillin Color Stabilizer project a few times over. In other words, I ordered enough to get this done without running out. I hope I don't come to hate the FO! I will be using only one FO in my test project, as well as the same soap formula and no added colorants to make analysis easier use color saturation data.
I will not be repeating all of Todd's testing, but will be doing some other formulations in the process, as well as conducting periodic and long-term data collection. So it will be awhile before I report back with possibly conclusive results. I intend to follow this project through over the course of a year with follow up data collection for another year thereafter. However, I will post periodic progress & interim reports, perhaps on a monthly basis to start, with a 6-month interim report, first end-of-year report and follow-up in the second year for long-term results. Providing long-term data will hopefully show which of the 9 formulas provides longer term color inhibition.
Type of soap I will make for this project: Cold Process soap only.
What will not be included in this study: any other form of soap or B&B product; any possible ancillary contributing factors to color change inhibition (such as what any other chemicals or soap ingredients may contribute.)
In the meantime, folks, please remember to wear appropriate PPE when you work with these chemicals.
In my research to prepare for this project and in my written plan, I included not only PPE requirements for said chemicals, but also disposal requirements in the case that disposal is ever necessary, so you may want to take a look at that section on both MSD Sheets if you are going to be working with these chemicals yourself.
Below are 4 links that indicate PPE required for working with these two chemicals. If you are in the UK, you will need the EU equivalent (or better) for the masks/PPE. For our purposes, full skin protection is recommended, including boots, and N95 mask at minimum, and a well ventilated area and handling powder in such a way that dust is not bandied about. In fact, it is suggested that for high dust situations, dust particles be container under a ventilation hood. And caution must be taken to prevent animals and other humans from exposure.
https://tinyurl.com/y3jacpzyhttps://tinyurl.com/y6tmt6gchttps://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/639110O/3m-respirator-selection-guide.pdfhttps://www.nipissingu.ca/sites/default/files/2018-06/Disposable Face Mask Information.pdf
For also-known-as or synonyms or other names for these chemicals, should you need them here are some links:
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/chebi/searchId.do?chebiId=CHEBI:114786https://go.drugbank.com/salts/DBSALT002505https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Sodium-thiosulfate-pentahydrate
Heres what im understanding:
3oz metabisulfate
3oz thiosulfate
10oz water
then use 1:1: for f.O
Ex: I use 1oz FO per batch so would I use 1oz of above solution?
Can this solution be stored in fridge for later use?
Does that 1oz solution NEED to be calculated into my water weight even though it would go in post cook?
3oz metabisulfate
3oz thiosulfate
10oz water
then use 1:1: for f.O
Ex: I use 1oz FO per batch so would I use 1oz of above solution?
Can this solution be stored in fridge for later use?
Does that 1oz solution NEED to be calculated into my water weight even though it would go in post cook?
Correct on the measurements and usage rate.
From what I read, it does not need to be stored in the fridge, but it should be very, very airtight to prevent evaporation and recrystallization. Todd said that he puts a cork in the bottle before putting the lid on.
Several people have stated that they don't adjust their water weight, but I believe most of them were doing CP. For HP, I would think it would affect your fluidity when adding post-cook. Please give it a try and let us know!
From what I read, it does not need to be stored in the fridge, but it should be very, very airtight to prevent evaporation and recrystallization. Todd said that he puts a cork in the bottle before putting the lid on.
Several people have stated that they don't adjust their water weight, but I believe most of them were doing CP. For HP, I would think it would affect your fluidity when adding post-cook. Please give it a try and let us know!
@Todd Ziegler can you read the above and tell me if I'm on the right track?
Not Todd, but I can say yup, those are the correct ratios for making it and using it.
An update on diy VANILLA STABILIZER SOLUTION:
I totally botched the label I made so I will reupload it, with correct label, another time. I don't know how to delete a post so I'm explaining the change.
Last edited:
I haven't tried this, but I am following the thread. Your label shows 3 g each of metabisulfite and thiosulfate to 10 oz of water. It is my understanding that you would use 3 ounces of each to 10 oz of water. Correct me if I am misreading your label, or if I am wrong about the ratios.
I'm so sorry my error.
I took down the pictures and will reupload with correct labels. Very little sleep last night. Yes 3oz of each and 10oz of water.
Todd Ziegler
Circle Z soaps
Sorry for falling behind but @AliOop got it right.
Yes you are correct. If you warm the water to 100°F it will help everything dissolve faster.
It is a weird formula and I am sure adjustments will be made after some long term trials.
I just wanted to remind everyone that making the storage bottles air tight for VCS and ZCS is important to keep the solution from crystalizing.
I use a rubber stopper but you can use a natural cork too.
Correct. Thanks @AliOop for answering some questions. I got really busy and couldn't find to check in.
This is pictures with correct ratios according to ziegler's recipe
3 oz metabisulfate
3 oz thiosulfate
10 oz distilled water
Warmed the water to mix all the crystals ( a must unless you want to wait hours for it to mix)
And poured into amber glass bottle with wax paper under the lid to DECREASE evaporation.
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rdc1978
Well-Known Member
Bless your soul for telling me what ROE is. I was tempted to think you all were using tiny fish eggs to prevent discoloration. JK
Anyone have any ideas of which preservative would be best for the solution? I am thinking optiphen. Last time I mixed the thiosulfate in water and did not use it up, it started smelling bad (same thing happened to my EDTA solution). I know the high alkalinity of the soap will kill anything that might be living there, but I would rather keep it fresh in the meantime.
Great question! I figured it wouldn't need a preservative because of lye interaction but I rather not introduce mold. Perhaps anyone out there knows what preservatives the commercial VSB have in them?
Todd Ziegler
Circle Z soaps
I don't know of any retailers who use a preservative in the VCS that contains metabisulfate. Are you using just the thiosulfate?
Metabisulfate is used as a preservative in the wine industry, so you should not need a preservative if you are using both metabisulfate and thiosulfate.
If you are using just thiosulfate ,I would have no idea for a preservative.
Thank you! Good to know.
For antioxidants in soap. I cannot find the precise article I took this from, but: Per 1000 grams of soap (about 32 ounces): 1 gram ROE (rosemary oleoresin) and 5 grams EDTA. For 500 grams of soap (about 16 ounces) use 0.5 grams of ROE and 2.5 grams of EDTA.
@Todd Ziegler Have you noticed any weird smell in the soap when using the metabisulfate and thiosulfate solution?
When I cut the soap today it smelled like a perm or some hair chemical. I have read in this forum that some fragrances can do that and it eventually fades, but I am just curious in the meantime. When I was making the soap the fragrance and stabilizer together smelled good.
When I cut the soap today it smelled like a perm or some hair chemical. I have read in this forum that some fragrances can do that and it eventually fades, but I am just curious in the meantime. When I was making the soap the fragrance and stabilizer together smelled good.
Todd Ziegler
Circle Z soaps
I have not encountered that at all. When I first tried the VCS I bought, I thought it would leave a smell like that but I have not encountered it in either the VCS or ZCS.
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