Formulating on and on and on...

[CecileBC]

Hi !

Another quick question if I may:
For the last three days, I have been trying to twist my recipe according to different skin types.
I try to balance the fatty acids: for dry skins for example, I decrease the myristic range to 20% (coco), increase the oleic to 40% (olive), and keep the palmitic at around 30% (shea). In this case I get 159 INS number.
However, as soon as I play around with oils, trying to keep that percentage, the best INS number I tend to get is 143, sometimes lower, down to 138.

Hence my question: How much importance should I give to this INS number ?
(Ex: Shea 35, Olive 27, coco 21, Avocado 8, Castor 5, Argan 4 = INS 140. Is that ok ?)

Many thanks !

 

[AliOop]

You can completely ignore the INS number. Many lovely soap formulations don't have a "good" INS number. Here is a good article that explains this more clearly.

 

[CecileBC]

You can completely ignore the INS number. Many lovely soap formulations don't have a "good" INS number. Here is a good article that explains this more clearly.

Ahhh, thank you AliOop ! I had seen that article from Classic Bells in my research, but of course did not think of it when needed. So INS just gives an idea that we're not totally out of bonds I guess.
Thanks

 

[AliOop]

You are so welcome. Our @DeeAnna's Classic Bells site is such a treasure trove of information on all the soapy things!

Honestly, I never look at INS for anything. It's just like the soap calculator's numbers regarding bubbly, conditioning, etc.; you have to take them with a grain of salt. They aren't the be-all or end-all of what makes good soap.

Think about it: pure OO soap has a terrible INS number, gets a 0 for cleansing, and 0 for bubbles. But people love it! Pure lard soap is similar in that regard.

Really, it's best to look at the fatty acid profile, and figure out which numbers on that profile make you and your skin the happiest. For instance, I honesty don't care much about the numbers impacting longevity, because I don't sell. In fact, soap that dissolves faster only means I can make more soap - hooray!

However, keeping the cleansing number way lower than the recommended value is very important to me. My family members all have sensitive skin and things like psoriasis, eczema, etc., and they can't handle the FAs that cause the cleansing number to go higher. Sadly, those are the same FA's that create bubbles. We love our bubbles, so I compensate for the low amount of bubbly FA's by adding sugar or sorbitol to my soaps. The calculator has no way to measure the effect of the sugar, so the bubbly number still looks very low. But the soap actually bubbles very well because of the sugar! In other words, the calculator numbers aren't going to give you the true picture of how bubbly this soap will really be.

Hopefully all of that information helps you feel free to ignore the INS number, and not to feel bound by the soap calc numbers, either. Get to know your fatty acids profiles, and how soaps with different FA profiles feel to your skin.

 

[CecileBC]

You are so welcome. Our @DeeAnna's Classic Bells site is such a treasure trove of information on all the soapy things!

Honestly, I never look at INS for anything. It's just like the soap calculator's numbers regarding bubbly, conditioning, etc.; you have to take them with a grain of salt. They aren't the be-all or end-all of what makes good soap.

Think about it: pure OO soap has a terrible INS number, gets a 0 for cleansing, and 0 for bubbles. But people love it! Pure lard soap is similar in that regard.

Really, it's best to look at the fatty acid profile, and figure out which numbers on that profile make you and your skin the happiest. For instance, I honesty don't care much about the numbers impacting longevity, because I don't sell. In fact, soap that dissolves faster only means I can make more soap - hooray!

However, keeping the cleansing number way lower than the recommended value is very important to me. My family members all have sensitive skin and things like psoriasis, eczema, etc., and they can't handle the FAs that cause the cleansing number to go higher. Sadly, those are the same FA's that create bubbles. We love our bubbles, so I compensate for the low amount of bubbly FA's by adding sugar or sorbitol to my soaps. The calculator has no way to measure the effect of the sugar, so the bubbly number still looks very low. But the soap actually bubbles very well because of the sugar! In other words, the calculator numbers aren't going to give you the true picture of how bubbly this soap will really be.

Hopefully all of that information helps you feel free to ignore the INS number, and not to feel bound by the soap calc numbers, either. Get to know your fatty acids profiles, and how soaps with different FA profiles feel to your skin.

Very interesting information AliOop, as usual. You're truly a big help !
Tomorrow I will write a good clear memo on fatty acids, and go by that.
And I agree, it's so interesting and addictive !!

 

[AliOop]

it's so interesting and addictive !!

Yes, it sure is!!

 

[Georgeandstella]

You are so welcome. Our @DeeAnna's Classic Bells site is such a treasure trove of information on all the soapy things!

Honestly, I never look at INS for anything. It's just like the soap calculator's numbers regarding bubbly, conditioning, etc.; you have to take them with a grain of salt. They aren't the be-all or end-all of what makes good soap.

Think about it: pure OO soap has a terrible INS number, gets a 0 for cleansing, and 0 for bubbles. But people love it! Pure lard soap is similar in that regard.

Really, it's best to look at the fatty acid profile, and figure out which numbers on that profile make you and your skin the happiest. For instance, I honesty don't care much about the numbers impacting longevity, because I don't sell. In fact, soap that dissolves faster only means I can make more soap - hooray!

However, keeping the cleansing number way lower than the recommended value is very important to me. My family members all have sensitive skin and things like psoriasis, eczema, etc., and they can't handle the FAs that cause the cleansing number to go higher. Sadly, those are the same FA's that create bubbles. We love our bubbles, so I compensate for the low amount of bubbly FA's by adding sugar or sorbitol to my soaps. The calculator has no way to measure the effect of the sugar, so the bubbly number still looks very low. But the soap actually bubbles very well because of the sugar! In other words, the calculator numbers aren't going to give you the true picture of how bubbly this soap will really be.

Hopefully all of that information helps you feel free to ignore the INS number, and not to feel bound by the soap calc numbers, either. Get to know your fatty acids profiles, and how soaps with different FA profiles feel to your skin.

It’s too bad that the calculator doesn’t take into account the sugar. I noticed no change when I added it.

 

[AliOop]

It’s too bad that the calculator doesn’t take into account the sugar. I noticed no change when I added it.

No change in the calculator numbers, or no change in the soap?

 

[Georgeandstella]

No change in the calculator numbers, or no change in the soap?

Calculator numbers increase in the soap, yes It would be nice if the calculator added the benefits of sugar and sodium lactate, etc into its factors and property outputs, especially for us newbies

 

[Zany_in_CO]

However, as soon as I play around with oils, trying to keep that percentage, the best INS number I tend to get is 143, sometimes lower, down to 138.

Really, it's best to look at the fatty acid profile, and figure out which numbers on that profile make you and your skin the happiest.

The best thing about SoapCalc is the you can look at both "Soap Qualities" and "Fatty Acids" at the same time. One informs the other.

So INS just gives an idea that we're not totally out of bonds I guess.

Yes. I'm just the opposite of @AliOop. The INS Value tells me fairly accurately how good my formula is and how long the cure time is likely to be. For example, with INS 143 or 138, the batch will take a little longer cure time to peak and be hard enough to use.

(Ex: Shea 35, Olive 27, coco 21, Avocado 8, Castor 5, Argan 4 = INS 140. Is that ok ?)

It's more than just "ok"! It looks wonderful to me! I think you will really like it. Well done!

It doesn't even take a minute for me to look at those numbers and oils and know that it will be a lovely high-conditioning bar with good lather that will peak in 6-8 weeks -- although, the longer the cure, the better the bar and the longer it will last (in most cases).

Of course, I'm not sciencey at all so I can't speak to the FA content. I leave that to others to do.

The numbers are a huge help to me. I have been soaping since I made my first bar in 2003. I learned the value of staying within the Recommended Range for all the values in order to produce good soap. You can learn a lot by playing around with the numbers and then waiting to see results from what you end up with.

We can't all be scientists but those "guidelines" gives us each the opportunity to be good soapmakers. Just think of all those poor people who don't have a @DeeAnna or @AliOop to guide them.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I think that the focus on numbers alone is the biggest issue many have - as the numbers are not the whole picture. Oils and fats are not just fatty acids strung together with glycerine and that's all she wrote. You can make two very similar recipes based on numbers but using different oils and end up with very different soaps. The fatty acid profile is important as to why we would keep co and pko at similar amounts generally, but in practice the two yield slightly different results.

A classic example is lard and shea, which based on numbers are not wildly different, and yet a 50% lard soap feels much different than a 50% Shea soap, all other things being equal. The difference between lard and shea is more in things outside of the numbers in a calculator

 

[CecileBC]

The best thing about SoapCalc is the you can look at both "Soap Qualities" and "Fatty Acids" at the same time. One informs the other.

Yes. I'm just the opposite of @AliOop. The INS Value tells me fairly accurately how good my formula is and how long the cure time is likely to be. For example, with INS 143 or 138, the batch will take a little longer cure time to peak and be hard enough to use.

It's more than just "ok"! It looks wonderful to me! I think you will really like it. Well done!

It doesn't even take a minute for me to look at those numbers and oils and know that it will be a lovely high-conditioning bar with good lather that will peak in 6-8 weeks -- although, the longer the cure, the better the bar and the longer it will last (in most cases).

Of course, I'm not sciencey at all so I can't speak to the FA content. I leave that to others to do.

The numbers are a huge help to me. I have been soaping since I made my first bar in 2003. I learned the value of staying within the Recommended Range for all the values in order to produce good soap. You can learn a lot by playing around with the numbers and then waiting to see results from what you end up with.

We can't all be scientists but those "guidelines" gives us each the opportunity to be good soapmakers. Just think of all those poor people who don't have a @DeeAnna or @AliOop to guide them.

Thanks for your feedback Zani, much appreciated !
Looking forward to have enough knowledge to know how to juggle between numbers and other factors without spending days pondering over soapcalc

 

[CecileBC]

I think that the focus on numbers alone is the biggest issue many have - as the numbers are not the whole picture. Oils and fats are not just fatty acids strung together with glycerine and that's all she wrote. You can make two very similar recipes based on numbers but using different oils and end up with very different soaps. The fatty acid profile is important as to why we would keep co and pko at similar amounts generally, but in practice the two yield slightly different results.

A classic example is lard and shea, which based on numbers are not wildly different, and yet a 50% lard soap feels much different than a 50% Shea soap, all other things being equal. The difference between lard and shea is more in things outside of the numbers in a calculator

Thanks a lot. Soaping is truly an adventure on the long run ! Experience will help one day

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Just ran the numbers for those interested - Shea or lard at 50%, coconut 25%, castor 5%, ho sunflower 20%

 

[CecileBC]

Just ran the numbers for those interested - Shea or lard at 50%, coconut 25%, castor 5%, ho sunflower 20%

I see.... The main difference being between stearic and palmitic. Very different INS numbers! Thanks

 

[Georgeandstella]

Just ran the numbers for those interested - Shea or lard at 50%, coconut 25%, castor 5%, ho sunflower 20%

Hi, so what are the differences between the shea v the lard bar resulting properties? Thank you.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Hi, so what are the differences between the shea v the lard bar resulting properties? Thank you.

Many people find high butter soaps generally to be more "draggy" and more brittle

 

[Georgeandstella]

Many people find high butter soaps generally to be more "draggy" and more brittle

Thank you, I’ve been using high tallow and lard for my soaps, and thought I was missing out, as the butters just sound so luscious.

 

[soapme]

I’m sorry… what’s an FA?

 

[CecileBC]

I’m sorry… what’s an FA?

Fatty Acid