(dumb) question about superfat

[drunkonlife]

What are your objections to lard and tallow?

No objections. I just don't have any (and have a ton of other oils, haha)

 

[dixiedragon]

What oils do you have? (Besides a gallon of jojoba, lol).

If you are interested in knowing the science behind soaping, check out Kevin Dunne's Scientific Soap Making.

Also, you can use jojoba and beeswax to make wood polish.

 

[Cellador]

Good to know. Anyone on the forum want to buy a gallon of jojobo oil? (JK). In all seriousness, I hate that I bought it now but probably can make use of it down the road.

Are you using any more exotic oils/butters? Right now, my bases seem to be OO, CO, Shea butter, PO, Castor Oil and now sweet almond oil.

I love jojoba for body/face oils, lotion bars (already mentioned), and homemade body butters. If I'm not mistaken, it also has a long shelf life, so it won't go to waste.

 

[cmzaha]

That's why I said most, not all! Castor is definitely an important exception. I'd also assume coconut/babassu used at 5% or lower would make a noticeable difference.

But many other oils would get lost, I think.

Certainly some get lost. I can tell a difference at 20% olive oil versus 8%. I dislike olive oil in soap in high percentages, but I do agree 5% sunflower, 5% avocado etc would not really make a difference. Coconut Oil /babassu/pko are certainly oils where there is a noticeable difference

 

[drunkonlife]

What oils do you have? (Besides a gallon of jojoba, lol).

Let's see...

200 ounces Olive Oil
128 ounces Coconut Oil
32 Ounces palm kernal oil
112 ounces of palm oil (because at the time I didn't realize the difference between PKO and PO)
128 Ounces Castor Oil
120 ounces Sunflower Oil
120 Ounces Sweet Almond Oil
14 ounces Jojoba oil
14 ounces shea butter (unrefined)..

so a lot of oil, haha.

 

[toxikon]

Certainly some get lost. I can tell a difference at 20% olive oil versus 8%. I dislike olive oil in soap in high percentages, but I do agree 5% sunflower, 5% avocado etc would not really make a difference. Coconut Oil /babassu/pko are certainly oils where there is a noticeable difference

Yeah I was thinking more along the lines of exotic oils like avocado, meadowfoam, argan, jojoba, tamanu, etc. Those nice expensive liquid oils wouldn't shine much at lower than 5%. I love them in leave-on products though.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

Let's see...

200 ounces Olive Oil
128 ounces Coconut Oil
32 Ounces palm kernal oil
112 ounces of palm oil (because at the time I didn't realize the difference between PKO and PO)
128 Ounces Castor Oil
120 ounces Sunflower Oil
120 Ounces Sweet Almond Oil
14 ounces Jojoba oil
14 ounces shea butter (unrefined)..

so a lot of oil, haha.

Good Lord! That's enough Castor for 160 lb of soap at 5%!

You need to buy some ROE, ASAP and figure out how to use it.

 

[toxikon]

Good Lord! That's enough Castor for 160 lb of soap at 5%!

You need to buy some ROE, ASAP and figure out how to use it.

ROE and freezing the oils with the shortest expiry dates, for sure. Wow! That's a crazy amount of oil. I'd definitely freeze a large portion of the sunflower, sweet almond, olive oil, shea and jojoba.

 

[drunkonlife]

Good Lord! That's enough Castor for 160 lb of soap at 5%!

You need to buy some ROE, ASAP and figure out how to use it.

It's my practice oils....and I have a lot of friends and family, lol. My plan is to do a 5 pound loaf a week until I get comfortable with it so it should go fairly quickly. Plus, I figure that a couple hundred dollars of soapmaking materials for "school" isn't so bad. It may appear that I am a little overzealous and crazy but it will get used.

 

[kchaystack]

It's my practice oils....and I have a lot of friends and family, lol. My plan is to do a 5 pound loaf a week until I get comfortable with it so it should go fairly quickly. Plus, I figure that a couple hundred dollars of soapmaking materials for "school" isn't so bad.

You really do not want to do such large batches as practice. I would not do more than 1 pound batches until you are comfortable. Not only for cost - but also because if you make a bunch of bad soap, you might scare off all your testers.

 

[dixiedragon]

Let's see...

200 ounces Olive Oil
128 ounces Coconut Oil
32 Ounces palm kernal oil
112 ounces of palm oil (because at the time I didn't realize the difference between PKO and PO)
128 Ounces Castor Oil
120 ounces Sunflower Oil
120 Ounces Sweet Almond Oil
14 ounces Jojoba oil
14 ounces shea butter (unrefined)..

so a lot of oil, haha.

I'd recommend something like a 2.5 lb batch, approximately 1 log in mold log molds. That's 10 bars. But if you want to make 5 lbs at a time...go for it, lol.

Re your oils - PKO is basically a gentler version of coconut, so you could try it a 10, 20 or even 30% of a recipe.

With you oils, try:
40% palm
20% coconut
5% castor
35% (the rest) divided between olive and sunflower.

Use your shea butter, sweet almond and jojoba to make a whipped butter or a solid lotion bar.

 

[drunkonlife]

I'd recommend something like a 2.5 lb batch, approximately 1 log in mold log molds. That's 10 bars. But if you want to make 5 lbs at a time...go for it, lol.

Re your oils - PKO is basically a gentler version of coconut, so you could try it a 10, 20 or even 30% of a recipe.

With you oils, try:
40% palm
20% coconut
5% castor
35% (the rest) divided between olive and sunflower.

Use your shea butter, sweet almond and jojoba to make a whipped butter or a solid lotion bar.

Thank you so much. I am going to try this recipe my next batch later this week. I know it seems like 5 pound batches is overkill considering I just started but I bought a 5 pound mold set and figured that since that is the mold I am likely to use regularly, I may as well practice like I play, for better or worse. Plus, all these darn oils need a place to go!

 

[cmzaha]

Thank you so much. I am going to try this recipe my next batch later this week. I know it seems like 5 pound batches is overkill considering I just started but I bought a 5 pound mold set and figured that since that is the mold I am likely to use regularly, I may as well practice like I play, for better or worse. Plus, all these darn oils need a place to go!

But you are going to not be happy when a batch goes sideways and you just wasted 50-55 oz of oil for your 5 lb mold. It really makes no difference in making 5lb versus 2lb except less waste. You do not have the experience yet to know if the soap is even good, so it is much better to make 1-2 lb batches so you can make more and try different oil combinations. Even though some soaps I make 25lbs at a time I still use smaller molds 6-7 lb molds and use 1 lb molds for testing. I would not dream of making a 5 lb test batch. Been there done that and tossed a few which always makes me mad so I learned my lesson. Take the time to make small test batches

 

[Zany_in_CO]

When you superfat, do you simply add a percentage on top of that or is it more complicated than that?

It's actually less complicated than that. A no-brainer really. On SoapCalc, the default amount for water is 38% (full water amount) and for superfat it's 5% (vs. 0% which would saponify all the oils in your formula) and you want some of the fatty acids to remain unsapped just cuz it feels nicer on the skin. Use the defaults for your first few batches. Later, you may want to discount your water amount, i.e., use less liquid or change your superfat % either up or down, depending on what you want to achieve and what oils are in your formula.

...the verbage on most blogs call CO "cleansing" when actually a better adjective (albeit not as nice) would be "stripping".

LOL

As far as the poundage, I'm kind of in it to win it, lol. Been buying oils bulk at the Bulk Apothecary to keep costs down and my first two molds are 5 pounders. So, it's all trial by fire on my end.

Hey Hey "Drunk", you got spunk! We're all concerned you'll go ker-plunk!
LOL I'm totally on board, wishing you the best of luck and hoping to help any way I can -- as are we all.

Here's a great resource to learn what each oil brings to a bar of soap:
http://www.lovinsoap.com/oils-chart/

^^^^^ Ditto

...The chemistry part is what attracted me to this endeavor.

Read the next quote. Then go back and "Like" dixiedragon's post.

If you are interested in knowing the science behind soaping, check out Kevin Dunne's Scientific Soap Making.

^^^^^ Ditto

You need to buy some ROE, ASAP and figure out how to use it.

Here's a good way to use up some of your jojoba oil. ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract), is an antioxidant used to slow down rancidity in oils. It is thick and gooey and can get messy. To make it easier to dispense, here's what I do:

2 oz. ROE (from Lotion Crafter -- see BG's original post to link to it.)
4 oz. Jojoba Oil
USE RATE: 1/2 teaspoon PPO (Per Pound Oils)

Add to oils when they are first opened. I also add to the batch at the same rate.
:bunny:

200 ounces Olive Oil
128 ounces Coconut Oil
32 Ounces palm kernal oil
112 ounces of palm oil (because at the time I didn't realize the difference between PKO and PO)
128 Ounces Castor Oil
120 ounces Sunflower Oil
120 Ounces Sweet Almond Oil
14 ounces Jojoba oil
14 ounces shea butter (unrefined)..

Total: 868 ounces / 80oz per batch = 11 batches of soap
It's a good thing castor oil has a long shelf life! I buy it by the gallon also and decant it into 16 oz. bottles when first opened.

To Extend the Shelf Life of Oils:
Add an antioxident such as ROE and/or Vitamin E.
Store oils away from light at room temperature, 65°F (18°C) to 75°F (24°C), the cooler the better.
Refrigerate or freeze them in small containers.
Less air space in the bottles, the longer the shelf life.

Oil - Typical Use Rate % >>>>> Shelf Life.
Castor - 2-5%>>>>> approx 1 year, keep in cool place.
Coconut - 5-25%>>>>>1 year +, keep in cool place.
Jojoba - less than 10%>>>>> Indefinite. Jojoba is not an oil, but a liquid wax.
Olive - up to 100%>>>>> 2 years, keep in cool place.
Palm - up to 30%>>>>> approx 1 year, keep in cool place.
Palm Kernel Oil - 15%>>>>> approx 1 year, keep in cool place.
Shea Butter - up to 15%>>>>> 1 year, longer if refrigerated.
Sunflower - 20% or more>>>>> 3 months to 1 year, refrigerate.
Sweet Almond - 5-20%>>>>> 6 months to 1 year, keep in cool place.

Source: https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-...s-guide-to-soapmaking-common-soapmaking-oils/

200 ounces Olive Oil
128 ounces Coconut Oil
32 Ounces palm kernal oil (PKO)
112 ounces of palm oil
128 Ounces Castor Oil
120 ounces Sunflower Oil
120 Ounces Sweet Almond Oil
14 ounces Jojoba oil
14 ounces shea butter (unrefined)..

Soaping Marathon Challenge: Create 11 batches using only the oils listed. Use the recommended % of each oil (posted above) as a guideline.

Formulating Guidelines
1) Coconut Oil and/or PKO (lather, cleansing, hardness) set the foundation; use in all batches.
2) Olive Oil with/or without Sunflower, Almond, Jojoba (conditioning oils).
3) Palm Oil - Filler oil; balances hard vs. liquid oils; if this runs out, use lard and/or tallow
4) Shea Butter - Adds extra emollience; conditioning; moisturizing.
5) Castor Oil - Bumps the lather; good for shampoo bar; conditioning; moisturizing.

 

[KristaY]

Hi DrunkOnLife and welcome! I appreciate your enthusiasm and remember it well.

If you want to use the molds you have and make smaller "test" batches, make a vertical divider and put it at the half way point of the log. You can even make 2 so the log is divided in 3. I did it with scrap cardboard from shipping boxes, covered the cardboard with shipping tape to make it more sturdy, then secured it to the mold and liner with tape. I had to work to keep the batter from bowing out the bottom but it worked fine for experiments. Then you can play with 1.25-2.5 lb batches while you experiment with the great oils you've got. I've done it several times so I could pour different oil recipes and try out new scents. I usually ended up with a bar in the middle that was half of each scent, and that was fun in itself.

 

[Susie]

You can even use the molds you have, only just pour an inch deep. So you will get 9 bars, just that it will be like using a slab mold. I seriously suggest making only a 2 lb batch. This is only until you get a recipe, or recipes that you love. THEN you can make huge batches. You really do not want to scare off your testers, they are an invaluable asset to a new soaper. You can send little surveys to them, and have them blind test batches. I used to put the bar of soap and the survey in a Ziploc bag, and send them out together. The cost of getting more soap was a completed survey.

I could not agree more with freezing some of those oils fast. That will indefinitely prolong the shelf life of those oils while you use them down.

 

[navigator9]

I wholeheartedly agree with George about the jojoba. Jojoba is a wonderful oil used straight on the skin, or even hair, but it just doesn't come through in the soap the way you'd hope it would. As far as "exotic" oils go, avocado is one that a lot of people find really nice in soap.

I think you will find, as most of us who have been making soap for any amount of time have found, that really good soap doesn't depend as much on "exotic" oils as it does a good balance of conditioning, lather and hardness, which you can achieve with a balanced recipe. You've already discovered that too much coconut oil is very stripping. Start tweaking your base recipe. I don't remember reading what oils you used in your 33/33/33 batch, but if they were the "holy trinity" of olive, coconut and palm, your recipe was actually a good starting point for experimenting. (not a 5lb batch, though!) With that recipe, you can see what equal amounts of those oils bring to the table. Next, you can increase the olive and decrease the coconut and see what that does. Keep notes, you'll want to remember. You can make wonderful soap with those three ingredients alone. They're not called the holy trinity for nothing. But you have to experiment with your recipe, which is why you've been advised not to make 5lb batches for now. Make lots of experimental batches until you come up with a recipe you really love.

Just FYI, one of my favorite ingredients is oatmeal, ground to a fine powder, or a little more chunky if you want scrubbiness, used at 1T per pound of oils. And it's cheap. Have fun experimenting!

 

[Zany_in_CO]

You can even use the molds you have, only just pour an inch deep.

^^^^^ Brilliant!

...really good soap doesn't depend as much on "exotic" oils as it does a good balance of conditioning, lather and hardness, which you can achieve with a balanced recipe. ... the "holy trinity" of olive, coconut and palm, your recipe was actually a good starting point for experimenting.

^^^^^Excellent advice! So, I'm thinking:

David Fisher’s Site has a lot of good info for beginners. You may want to take time to review some basics like safety precautions, how to mix lye, etc. Here's a link:
http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/soapmakingbasics/u/soapuserpath1.htm

Batch #1 -
Basic Trinity of Oils: Coconut, Palm, Olive (David’s Basic Recipe)

Go to SoapCalc.net (or BrambleBerry's) and plug in the following amounts:

30.4 oz (38%) water (default %)
11.4 oz (5%) NaOH (324 grams) (default %)

20 oz (25%) coconut oil
24 oz (30%) palm (can sub lard, tallow later)
36 oz (45%) olive oil
80 oz TOTAL

Go to the View page and take a look at these values:

Sat:Unsat ratio >>> 49:51 Oils are well balanced between saturated oils and unsaturated oils

Soap Qualities (Recommended “Range” in parentheses)
47 Hardness (29 - 54)
17 Cleansing (12 - 22)
49 Conditioning (44 - 69)
17 Bubbly (14 - 46)
30 Creamy (16 - 48)
52 Iodine (41 - 70)
161 INS (136-165) Note: INS value of 160 = So called “perfect” soap

It doesn't get much better than this. So make this first to see how you like it. For future batches, this is where you would tweak the formula to perhaps get more conditioning and less cleansing, for example.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Once you’ve got your formula for 80 oz. oils, you may want to take Susie’s advice to find the amount of oils needed to fill your 5 lb mold to a depth of one inch. Steve Mushensky’s Site at Summer Bee Meadow has a “Recipe Resizer”. Use the calculator to enter the oil amounts above. Click “Calculate”. Then follow the instructions to resize for a 1” deep batch.

http://summerbeemeadow.com/sites/all/sbm_calc_input/calc_input_page_1.1.html

HAPPY SOAPING! :wave:

​

 

[DeeAnna]

David Fischer's soap making info is now located at "The Spruce" https://www.thespruce.com/candle-and-soap-making-4127412

 

[drunkonlife]

^^^^^ Brilliant!



Once you’ve got your formula for 80 oz. oils, you may want to take Susie’s advice to find the amount of oils needed to fill your 5 lb mold to a depth of one inch. Steve Mushensky’s Site at Summer Bee Meadow has a “Recipe Resizer”. Use the calculator to enter the oil amounts above. Click “Calculate”. Then follow the instructions to resize for a 1” deep batch.

http://summerbeemeadow.com/sites/all/sbm_calc_input/calc_input_page_1.1.html

HAPPY SOAPING! :wave:

​

Thanks you guys!

Quick question. I know that to produce a 5 pound loaf (approximately), I need 51.6 oils without superfatting. Using that logic, it would be roughly 10.32 ounces per pound. Could I simply reduce my recipe that way and then adjust my percentages to ounces accordingly?