(dumb) question about superfat

[drunkonlife]

trying to wrap my head around the math when it comes to superfat....Let's say that you want to do a 33/33/33 blend of oils in soap. An 80 ounce (5 pound) batch of soap would be roughly 17.2 ounces of oil 3 ways. When you superfat, do you simply add a percentage on top of that or is it more complicated than that?

 

[toxikon]

Yep. Are you using a lye calculator to formulate your recipes? It does all the math for you - which is great for me, because I suck at it.

My favourite is Soapee - I like the UI, you can save recipes, and it's easy to do dual-lye solid soap with it.

 

[Susie]

Agreed with using Soapee.com. Awesome, user friendly calculator. You just leave the superfat alone, as 5% is the default.

However, I am concerned about a couple of things.

1. 5 lbs is a LARGE batch for a newbie. I would strongly recommend that you make no more than a 2 lb batch to start with, so that you are not stuck with 5 lbs of bad soap. You will be making lots of batches trying to fine tune your favorite recipe, so not being stuck with a lot of bad soap is important.

2. 33/33/33 is a HORRIBLE recipe. That is way too much CO for most people. I would strongly suggest you make something more like this to start with:

Lard/Tallow/Palm 60%
CO 15-20%
OO 15-20%
Castor Oil 5%

Superfat 5%

Most oils are available at Walmart, castor oil will be in the pharmacy area by the laxatives. Lard, CO, OO are available on the baking aisle. If you want to try the palm/tallow option, you can buy the Great Value Shortening (NOT the vegetable shortening!) and choose the appropriate option on the calculator.

 

[drunkonlife]

Thanks. That's what I thought but I guess I wanted to over complicate things. I was using BrambleBerry's lye calculator for my first batch but cut the water abit (I read a couple articles from other soapers that literally just doubled the lye ounces- I did more than double but less than suggested) and it went went pretty well (although I freaked out when it turned to pudding so quickly but the end result was amazing smelling, just not so pretty...more rustic looking).

This next batch, I am adding more exotic oils and laying back on the coconut oil because it felt too dry on the skin and because of that, I am going to have to formulate....

 

[BrewerGeorge]

A more instructive term than superfat is "lye discount" and refers to the balance of lye to oils. Zero superfat/discount would be every bit fats perfectly reacted with lye. That's kind of hard to do without very accurate scales and measurements of lye purity, so we typically introduce a buffer, or cushion and choose to use less lye than calculations would indicate. We discount the lye, which ensures excess unreacted fats - superfat. So we don't add more oil, so much as we use less lye.

That's the best way to look at it, although you are technically correct that adding more oil would be functionally equivalent. The problem with that approach is that by convention we start with the amount of oils as the basis for all calculations. But it's still useful to know this because it will guide you when doing things like deciding how to round fractional grams in calculated recipes. Rounding oils up and lye down are both in the desired direction of higher superfat/lye discount.

 

[drunkonlife]

Agreed with using Soapee.com. Awesome, user friendly calculator. You just leave the superfat alone, as 5% is the default.

However, I am concerned about a couple of things.

1. 5 lbs is a LARGE batch for a newbie. I would strongly recommend that you make no more than a 2 lb batch to start with, so that you are not stuck with 5 lbs of bad soap. You will be making lots of batches trying to fine tune your favorite recipe, so not being stuck with a lot of bad soap is important.

2. 33/33/33 is a HORRIBLE recipe. That is way too much CO for most people. I would strongly suggest you make something more like this to start with:

Lard/Tallow/Palm 60%
CO 15-20%
OO 15-20%
Castor Oil 5%

Superfat 5%

Most oils are available at Walmart, castor oil will be in the pharmacy area by the laxatives. Lard, CO, OO are available on the baking aisle. If you want to try the palm/tallow option, you can buy the Great Value Shortening (NOT the vegetable shortening!) and choose the appropriate option on the calculator.

yeah, I was using a recipe from the SQ. I actually already made my first batch and it was okay but a bit too drying (as many of the other soapers have commented on a previous soap. It's funny how that is...the verbage on most blogs call CO "cleansing" when actually a better adjective (albeit not as nice) would be "stripping".

As far as the poundage, I'm kind of in it to win it, lol. Been buying oils bulk at the Bulk Apothecary to keep costs down and my first two molds are 5 pounders. So, it's all trial by fire on my end.

 

[toxikon]

Thanks. That's what I thought but I guess I wanted to over complicate things. I was using BrambleBerry's lye calculator for my first batch but cut the water abit (I read a couple articles from other soapers that literally just doubled the lye ounces- I did more than double but less than suggested) and it went went pretty well (although I freaked out when it turned to pudding so quickly but the end result was amazing smelling, just not so pretty...more rustic looking).

This next batch, I am adding more exotic oils and laying back on the coconut oil because it felt too dry on the skin and because of that, I am going to have to formulate....

Unless I am misunderstanding... you used twice the amount of lye it recommended you use? That's not water discounting, that's messing with the superfat. So if you originally had it set to a 5% superfat, if you doubled the lye, you'd end up with a very negative superfat. Math people, feel free to jump in if I'm totally wrong here.

If you want to do a water discount, you're subtracting some of the water - not increasing the lye. If your soap is lye-heavy, it will probably not be usable and will need to be rebatched. Lye-heavy soap is very stripping to the skin and can even cause burns.

I'd recommend on holding back on exotic oils until you have a good base recipe. Adding exotic oils won't counteract the drying properties of coconut oil - to make your soap less stripping, you'll just need to use a lower percentage of stripping oils.

 

[drunkonlife]

A more instructive term than superfat is "lye discount" and refers to the balance of lye to oils. Zero superfat/discount would be every bit fats perfectly reacted with lye. That's kind of hard to do without very accurate scales and measurements of lye purity, so we typically introduce a buffer, or cushion and choose to use less lye than calculations would indicate. We discount the lye, which ensures excess unreacted fats - superfat. So we don't add more oil, so much as we use less lye.

That's the best way to look at it, although you are technically correct that adding more oil would be functionally equivalent. The problem with that approach is that by convention we start with the amount of oils as the basis for all calculations. But it's still useful to know this because it will guide you when doing things like deciding how to round fractional grams in calculated recipes. Rounding oils up and lye down are both in the desired direction of higher superfat/lye discount.

Thanks. That's what I need. The chemistry part is what attracted me to this endeavor. From what I can understand, different oils require either more or less lye depending on the fatty chains within the oil; when they are combined, the molecules attach to form soap. That's kind of my understanding from what I've read at least. Am I too far off base with my thinking?

 

[BrewerGeorge]

Unless I am misunderstanding... you used twice the amount of lye it recommended you use? That's not water discounting, that's messing with the superfat. So if you originally had it set to a 5% superfat, if you doubled the lye, you'd end up with a very negative superfat. Math people, feel free to jump in if I'm totally wrong here.

If you want to do a water discount, you're subtracting some of the water - not increasing the lye. If your soap is lye-heavy, it will probably not be usable and will need to be rebatched. Lye-heavy soap is very stripping to the skin and can even cause burns.

...

Doubling the lye from a 5% superfat plan would, I think, cause something like a 40% lye excess and a blisteringly unusable soap.

I think drunkonlife was saying he(she?) doubled the weight of lye to get the amount of water. That's a basic rule of thumb for 33% lye concentration.

ETA: Actually now that I think about it, I think it would be a 90% excess!

 

[drunkonlife]

Unless I am misunderstanding... you used twice the amount of lye it recommended you use? That's not water discounting, that's messing with the superfat. So if you originally had it set to a 5% superfat, if you doubled the lye, you'd end up with a very negative superfat. Math people, feel free to jump in if I'm totally wrong here.

If you want to do a water discount, you're subtracting some of the water - not increasing the lye. If your soap is lye-heavy, it will probably not be usable and will need to be rebatched. Lye-heavy soap is very stripping to the skin and can even cause burns.

I'd recommend on holding back on exotic oils until you have a good base recipe. Adding exotic oils won't counteract the drying properties of coconut oil - to make your soap less stripping, you'll just need to use a lower percentage of stripping oils.

No, I'm basically doubling the water amount compared to the lye and then adding a bit more. The lye stays the same, I am basically dropping the amount of water suggested based solely on the things I've read in blogs and what not.

My next batch I intend to use less coconut oil (thanks to the suggestions of this forum! my new formula for coconut oil looks to be about 18%) and add castor oil to the mix. I just bought some sweet almond oil and jojoba oil (which I plan to use very sparingly) and intend to add some to my next mix.

 

[toxikon]

Doubling the lye from a 5% superfat plan would, I think, cause something like a 40% lye excess and a blisteringly unusable soap.

I think drunkonlife was saying he(she?) doubled the weight of lye to get the amount of water. That's a basic rule of thumb for 33% lye concentration.

Hopefully that's the case! I wasn't entirely sure from the wording.

edit: I see the response now, so that's great! Nevermind my worry.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

Jojoba is wasted in soap, honestly. I did the same thing you're doing when I started out - I even considered soaping tamanu oil - but the folks around here talked me out of it.

 

[drunkonlife]

Jojoba is wasted in soap, honestly. I did the same thing you're doing when I started out - I even considered soaping tamanu oil - but the folks around here talked me out of it.

Good to know. Anyone on the forum want to buy a gallon of jojobo oil? (JK). In all seriousness, I hate that I bought it now but probably can make use of it down the road.

Are you using any more exotic oils/butters? Right now, my bases seem to be OO, CO, Shea butter, PO, Castor Oil and now sweet almond oil.

 

[cmzaha]

Save your jojoba for a leave on product such as a nice lotion bar. It really adds nothing to soap. SAO is nice for the fact it is a bit more of a bubbly soft oil as compared to OO. I do like SAO in soap. The following recipe is one of my favorites. It is long lasting, bubbly and non stripping
A nice recipe is
40% tallow
30% lard
13% CO
13% liquid oil
4 % castor
3% superfat or your favorite
33% lye concentration
1tbs ppo sugar

 

[toxikon]

You won't even sense the presence of most oils in a soap unless used 5%+, so using small portions of exotic, expensive oils is mostly wasted. Unless a seasoned soap seller is using them for label-appeal.

Jojoba is more of a wax than an oil, so I believe it can act weirdly in lye-based soap.

You may want to save your exotic oils for use in leave-on products.

Good base recipe oils would be: lard/tallow/palm, olive oil/HO sunflower/safflower/ricebran, coconut oil, castor oil.

Good "exotic" oils would be: avocado oil, shea/cocoa/mango butter, sweet almond, babassu.

Just go with what's cheapest to get started. You'll want to tinker with your base recipe for a while before finding something that's perfect for you. Then it's time to start playing with exotic oils/butter and additives.

Here's a great resource to learn what each oil brings to a bar of soap: http://www.lovinsoap.com/oils-chart/

 

[drunkonlife]

Save your jojoba for a leave on product such as a nice lotion bar. It really adds nothing to soap. SAO is nice for the fact it is a bit more of a bubbly soft oil as compared to OO. I do like SAO in soap. The following recipe is one of my favorites. It is long lasting, bubbly and non stripping
A nice recipe is
40% tallow
30% lard
13% CO
13% liquid oil
4 % castor
3% superfat or your favorite
33% lye concentration
1tbs ppo sugar

Awesome! Do you have any suggestions if I'm not using lard/tallow?

 

[BrewerGeorge]

Good to know. Anyone on the forum want to buy a gallon of jojobo oil? (JK). In all seriousness, I hate that I bought it now but probably can make use of it down the road.

Are you using any more exotic oils/butters? Right now, my bases seem to be OO, CO, Shea butter, PO, Castor Oil and now sweet almond oil.

Like cmzha says, lotion bar. They're awesome and easy to make.

1/3 jojoba oil
1/3 beeswax
1/3 cocoa, shea or mango butter
some scent

I can't make them fast enough to keep my daughters supplied in the winter.

 

[cmzaha]

You won't even sense the presence of most oils in a soap unless used 5%+, so using small portions of exotic, expensive oils is mostly wasted. Unless a seasoned soap seller is using them for label-appeal

It is not necessarily so. Try making a slow trace recipe with 5% castor then make the same with 2-3% and you will see quite a difference in trace between the two percentages. It will still stabilize the lather at the 2% castor

Awesome! Do you have any suggestions if I'm not using lard/tallow?

Not really for this recipe since palm is the veggie replacement for lard and tallow, which is not a nice soap at 70%. You could use 40% palm, 10% coco butter and add to the soft oil. It just will not be quite the same. Keep butters on the low side since they hinder lather. I normally do not like over 10% of any butter in soap. Although have made a very high shea soap that requires over a year of curing to be nice but really not worth the shea expense or time required before using it

 

[BrewerGeorge]

What are your objections to lard and tallow?

 

[toxikon]

It is not necessarily so. Try making a slow trace recipe with 5% castor then make the same with 2-3% and you will see quite a difference in trace between the two percentages. It will still stabilize the lather at the 2% castor

That's why I said most, not all! Castor is definitely an important exception. I'd also assume coconut/babassu used at 5% or lower would make a noticeable difference.

But many other oils would get lost, I think.