Dual Alkali Soaps (NaOH & KOH)

[cmzaha]

Yes, in July of 2017 I made two batches of 100%RBO soap. One with NaOH and water as my lye solution, using a 40% lye concentration and zero SF. It gelled via CPOP, but I had to CPOP at a slightly higher temp the second time as with the oven below 100F and the high lye concentration, it only partially gelled. So I put it back in the oven at a higher temp to get it to complete the gel.

The second batch was with vinegar & NaOH (and water) as my lye solution, using 31.3% lye concentration and zero SF. This one gelled completely the first time with CPOP, but I started out with the oven at a higher temp (154F then turned off when I put the soap inside the oven) due to my previous soap, just to be sure.

Quick question are you using the vinegar to create your superfat or using extra NaOH to react the vinegar creating sodium acetate? I prefer to control my superfat by reacting the vinegar and I do really like the hardness the sodium acetate creates in the soap. Since my main recipes are already hard soaps I always go with the dual lye system now. I use EDTA and BHT to ward off dos

 

[Steve85569]

Not earlene but...
I use reacted vinegar as one half of my water in my recipes to control the SF and extra heat generated in making the sodium acetate.

 

[cmzaha]

Not earlene but...
I use reacted vinegar as one half of my water in my recipes to control the SF and extra heat generated in making the sodium acetate.

It will certainly work but it just seems like more math to me, maybe I am looking at it wrong

 

[earlene]

Quick question are you using the vinegar to create your superfat or using extra NaOH to react the vinegar creating sodium acetate? I prefer to control my superfat by reacting the vinegar and I do really like the hardness the sodium acetate creates in the soap. Since my main recipes are already hard soaps I always go with the dual lye system now. I use EDTA and BHT to ward off dos

I am using it to create Sodium Acetate for hardening soap. I add enough NaOH to offset the vinegar, so my SF should not be effected by the added vinegar, when my calculations are correct (which I try my best to make sure they are.) I use TOMH's method as he posts about here.

BTW, that soap I mentioned is zero SF, because I always do my test single oil soaps at zero SF. And that's what these are. Testing single oil, plus testing the same with SA via vinegar.

 

[cmzaha]

I am using it to create Sodium Acetate for hardening soap. I add enough NaOH to offset the vinegar, so my SF should not be effected by the added vinegar, when my calculations are correct (which I try my best to make sure they are.) I use TOMH's method as he posts about here.

BTW, that soap I mentioned is zero SF, because I always do my test single oil soaps at zero SF. And that's what these are. Testing single oil, plus testing the same with SA via vinegar.

I do the same thing and I happen to like 0 superfat for my own soap

 

[isha]

So how do i determine what extra to add when using dual lye witj ctric acid.
Lets say oil weight 300 gms.
N naoh 39 gms
Koh 3.3 gms

Now if i decide to add citrix acid at 1%.
How do i calculate its weight and should i increase KoH or NaoH?
As both have different metrics for calculating the extra weight..

As for my understanding
Naoh is 6.42 gms for 10 gms citric acid
Koh is 8.24 gms for 10 gms for citric acid

Correct me if im wrong TIA

 

[BattleGnome]

https://classicbells.com/soap/dualLye.html

DeeAnna has suggestions.

I tend to have more NaOH around, so I calculate in that direction. My mix order goes water, citric, NaOH, KOH.

 

[isha]

Thanks a lot. I shouldve read it first

 

[isha]

So i made a 100 %olive castile dual lye with citric acis
N 100 %rice bran castile dual lye with citric acid
Just a test batch will post the results

 

[penelopejane]

So i made a 100 %olive castile dual lye with citric acis
N 100 %rice bran castile dual lye with citric acid
Just a test batch will post the results

100% ricebran is a single oil ricebran soap.
It is not Castile.
Castile is the name for a soap made from 100% olive oil.

 

[Saffron]

I made both last April. One batch with Pomace OO and one with RBO. Both had a high lye concentration and a low SF just to keep things on an even plain.
No DOS on either. The OO did "green up" a little so I can tell them apart by just looking at them. Since they were both single lye soaps they are both snotty and seem to clean the same.

Since I am not a big fan of the castile snot I prolly won't repeat that experiment.

Hi, were they dual lye or just NaOH soaps?

 

[isha]

Hi, were they dual lye or just NaOH soaps?

its mentioned they were single lye soaps

 

[Saffron]

its mentioned they were single lye soaps

So it does! Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[isha]

Im planning to make 100% coconut oil soap with 30% sf...

Is there a need to use dual lye? Or wud a naoh lye be just fine. As it is coconut oil soap.
Im wondering if single lye or dual lye wud make any differnce in the finished bar..
Would love to know ur experience if anyone has tried

 

[cmzaha]

No there is no reason to use dual lye 100% CO is a very soluble soap on it's own. The purpose of the dual lye is to add a bit solubility to high stearic and palmatic and to help cut the gelatinous aspect of high oleic soaps such as OO soaps.

 

[isha]

Thanks

 

[Soapprentice]

Im planning to make 100% coconut oil soap with 30% sf...

Is there a need to use dual lye? Or wud a naoh lye be just fine. As it is coconut oil soap.
Im wondering if single lye or dual lye wud make any differnce in the finished bar..
Would love to know ur experience if anyone has tried

I do think 30 sf is too much and will melt pretty soon.

 

[cmzaha]

The superfat does not really have much to do with the solubility of the soap. CO soap is very soluble which is the reason it lathers in salt water and is called Boater's or Sailor's soap. I would not superfat at 30%

 

[Nanditasr]

No there is no reason to use dual lye 100% CO is a very soluble soap on it's own. The purpose of the dual lye is to add a bit solubility to high stearic and palmatic and to help cut the gelatinous aspect of high oleic soaps such as OO soaps.

I can understand cutting the gelatinous aspect of high oleic soaps, but why would one want to make a high stearic/palmitic soap more soluble -- isn't a harder, less soluble soap more long-lasting and therefore more desirable?

 

[BrewerGeorge]

I can understand cutting the gelatinous aspect of high oleic soaps, but why would one want to make a high stearic/palmitic soap more soluble -- isn't a harder, less soluble soap more long-lasting and therefore more desirable?

If you try a 100% lard soap, it basically doesn't lather. It doesn't slime like 100% olive, either, it just sort of rubs off on you like a thin, slippery lotion. If you have a poof or washcloth you can work that into a bit of a lather with tiny bubbles (Anybody else old enough to remember Don Ho?) but it's all-but impossible to make a noticeable lather with hands only - and that is with softened water. It still cleans and leaves the skin nice afterward, but I personally find the lack of bubbles to be very frustrating.

Increasing the solubility with a bit of KOH might make 100% lard soap a lot more pleasant to use. I'd given up on 100% lard, but I think I'm going to try that now.