Did I ruin this soap?

[montana1]

This is my first attempt at making soap. Trying to make bar soap.
I had used 15 ounces of coconut oil, 2 ounces of lye crystals and 4 ounces of water.

I had mixed them when warm, somewhat higher than 100F. It went through gel, applesauce and mushed potato stages, as I cooked it on water bath setup on low, mostly uncovered.
I covered it, once it got to mushed potato stage.
It took 2 hours of cooking time to get to this stage. 1.5 hours to get to apple sauce stage.
After that it seemed to start to get to vaseline stage at frist, getting a bit of translucency, but it didn't get there, to that glossy stage and it still could not pass zap test.
Next, it just became all solid white and kind of dry at around 2.5 hours of cook time. I was hoping it might start to get to vaseline stage but it does not get there, just turned into
solid and crumbly mass, and still not passing zap test. It's been cooking for 3.5 hours now and no sign of liquification for vaseline stage.
Is it hopeless and should be thrown out or is there anything that can fix it?


Update: it's been cooking for 3 hours 45 minutes now. Out of despair I had ramped up stove temperature to the point the water in the water bath is close to boiling. I'm noticing some translucency and softening showing on the very bottom of the pot now. Can't figure out if I'm overcooking this soap or should keep it at high temp and there's still some hope of getting to vaseline stage.

I kept heating it up and by 4.5 hours cook time it got soft and looking like vaseline stage from the videos, back to mashed potato consistency but semi-translucent and glossy. I ended up cooking it for 6 hours with water bath temperature close to boiling, since it didn't pass zap test earlier, and added 2 tablespoons of vinegar.
The reason it was stuck in solid state earlier seems to be cook temperatures being around 120-150F, it went to vaseline stage once it really heated up to above 200F.

Cooking it any further didn't seem to change the consistency, for the last hour it stayed the same.
The only downside it was still drying out really fast in the open air which created some problems with putting the top layer into the mold, top layer ended up crumbly. I shall see what it does when it dries.

It lathers very well like regular soap. I think it ended up being too dry because initially cooked without a lid for the 1st 2.5 hours, possibly.

 

[AliOop]

Hi there, and welcome to soaping! It wasn't clear to me from what you wrote, so I want to make sure: did you fully dissolve the lye crystals in the water, before adding that to the oils? And when you say that you "mixed" them, did you use a stickblender to combine them until there was no more oil slick on the top, and the soap was "traced"?

Assuming yes to both of those, here are some observations:

1. You started with a 33% lye solution (2:1 water:lye ratio). When making hot process soap, a lot of water evaporates during the cook, For that reason, you should start with significantly more water, like 3:1 water:lye ratio (25% lye solution).

2. You definitely should keep the soap covered during the entire cook, except when you lift the lid to stir it. That will not only keep more of the water from evaporating, it will also keep the heat in.

3. You don't need a water bath to cook soap. It's much easier to cook it in a stainless pot directly on the stove, or in a crock pot.

HP soap normally cooks to zap-free within an hour at most. Hopefully next time by keeping the lid on, and using a more direct heat source, you will have a faster and less stressful experience. But in the end, you have your first soap. Hooray!

 

[montana1]

Hi there, and welcome to soaping! It wasn't clear to me from what you wrote, so I want to make sure: did you fully dissolve the lye crystals in the water, before adding that to the oils?

Yes, sure, they were completely dissolved and the water used was very warm

And when you say that you "mixed" them, did you use a stickblender to combine them until there was no more oil slick on the top, and the soap was "traced"?

I did not use stick blender, I don't have one/don't plan to with all the constant relocations and travel I'm doing, I did it old school, mixing by hand and I did quite a bit of mixing. The oil seemed to be tracing OK, but it took a while before the mix gained thickened gel consistency, the early cook temperature was around 120H.

Assuming yes to both of those, here are some observations:

1. You started with a 33% lye solution (2:1 water:lye ratio). When making hot process soap, a lot of water evaporates during the cook, For that reason, you should start with significantly more water, like 3:1 water:lye ratio (25% lye solution).

I had used the most basic recipes I found online, several had called for 1:2 lye/water ratio. Now I see I could benefit from using more water.

2. You definitely should keep the soap covered during the entire cook, except when you lift the lid to stir it. That will not only keep more of the water from evaporating, it will also keep the heat in.

All the youtube videos tricked me into keeping it uncovered for a while, they often make it look like they cook uncovered but in reality they probably only take the lid off to record each stage.

3. You don't need a water bath to cook soap. It's much easier to cook it in a stainless pot directly on the stove, or in a crock pot.

I see. I read about water bath somewhere online, that's why I ended up using it. My stainless pot has quite a thick bottom so yes probably would be fine directly on that stove, especially since I used portable glass top burner that gives very smooth and weaker heat than stationary kitchen stove top.

HP soap normally cooks to zap-free within an hour at most. Hopefully next time by keeping the lid on, and using a more direct heat source, you will have a faster and less stressful experience. But in the end, you have your first soap. Hooray!

I wonder if I had too much lye.
I read a few recipes and descriptions on this forum mentioning 2, 3 even 5 hours of cooking time as normal, one person even cooked for 8 hours total, until zap test can pass or vaseline stage is reached. Not sure what makes these times so long. Perhaps using lower temperature, as I did, I read that optimal temperature was around 100F, but then in other places they say 170F, and others even say crock pot on High which means it can be 205F easily and I started off with 110-120 temps.
It was not thickening fast with these lower temps and after I ramped it up to may be 170F I saw quick thickening.

 

[AliOop]

You definitely did not use too much lye! In fact, the recipe as you wrote it has an excess of 20% super fat. That's pretty high, although not unusual for a 100% coconut oil soap. Unlike raw coconut oil, in soap, it makes for a very cleansing (drying) bar, which is why some folks use such a high super fat for 100% CO soaps.

I believe your cook took so long due to using a water bath (not enough heat applied) and leaving it uncovered (also letting heat escape).

The bottom line is, there is no set time to cook your HP soap. Remember, when you make CP soap, it isn't cooked at all. It just saponifies on its own over 24-72 hours.

Also, not every soap recipe will go through all the stages. Sometimes you just won't ever see the vaseline stage, or the mashed potatoes stage. I recommend cooking for about 30-40 minutes, and then getting it into the mold while it's still pourable. Let it firm up, which for 100% coconut oil, will be within a few hours at most. If you wait longer than that to cut it, it will be like granite (ask me how I know, hahaha). Use gloves while cutting in case it is still zappy or harsh.

Then, let it sit for a few days, and it will be ready to use. However, it will not be ideal Regardless of what the internet bloggers and FB posters say, all soap gets milder and longer lasting over time. If you give it some cure time, the excess water evaporates and the soap crystals do their thing. You will end up with a better soap.

 

[montana1]

You definitely did not use too much lye! In fact, the recipe as you wrote it has an excess of 20% super fat. That's pretty high, although not unusual for a 100% coconut oil soap. Unlike raw coconut oil, in soap, it makes for a very cleansing (drying) bar, which is why some folks use such a high super fat for 100% CO soaps.

I believe your cook took so long due to using a water bath (not enough heat applied) and leaving it uncovered (also letting heat escape).

The bottom line is, there is no set time to cook your HP soap. Remember, when you make CP soap, it isn't cooked at all. It just saponifies on its own over 24-72 hours.

I kept getting quite a strong zap until about 4 hours of cook time, even after I ramped up the temps.
Water bath being 2 thick-bottom pots I think definitely limited heating, but initially I thought I was supposed to cook it at 100F which is quite a low temp.
I'm about to head out on a year long RV trip before moving overseas and air-curing the soap would be difficult due to lack of space in the RV, so I wanted to cook it out as much as possible thinking it would minimize the curing. I think I can hang these bars inside a net somewhere though. They look nice and even on the cuts so far.
Until poring into mold, I kept getting a bit of delayed burning, may be 3-4 secs delay on zap test, not a strong one but I don't get this one with my well-aged Aleppo soap ,that's why I thought may be too much lye but I guess the rest will cure out in the air.
Another thing I don't have a scale and measured by halving 16 ounces of lye crystals several times I until I got to what looked like 2 ounces.

Also, not every soap recipe will go through all the stages. Sometimes you just won't ever see the vaseline stage, or the mashed potatoes stage. I recommend cooking for about 30-40 minutes, and then getting it into the mold while it's still pourable. Let it firm up, which for 100% coconut oil, will be within a few hours at most. If you wait longer than that to cut it, it will be like granite (ask me how I know, hahaha). Use gloves while cutting in case it is still zappy or harsh.

Oh I see so it's still supposed to be zappy even after hot process. This batch is easy on hands and I cut it once it cooled to barely warm on touch, it dries so fast I wonder if it ends up cracking down the road.

Then, let it sit for a few days, and it will be ready to use. However, it will not be ideal Regardless of what the internet bloggers and FB posters say, all soap gets milder and longer lasting over time. If you give it some cure time, the excess water evaporates and the soap crystals do their thing. You will end up with a better soap.

I see. I got sensitive skin and pretty sure even this well-cooked batch will need weeks of air curing before I can use it, it gives some delayed bite if you touch face with soapy hand.

 

[AliOop]

Until poring into mold, I kept getting a bit of delayed burning, may be 3-4 secs delay on zap test

If there is any delay, that is not a zap. A burning sensation is also not a zap. A zap is an immediate electric shock.

From what you described (delayed burning sensation), your soap was done long before you thought it was done.

Oh I see so it's still supposed to be zappy even after hot process.

Not necessarily, but it isn't a problem if it is zappy, because it will likely finish saponifying on its own. But again, as noted above, your soap wasn't actually zappy based on what you described.

I got sensitive skin and pretty sure even this well-cooked batch will need weeks of air curing before I can use it, it gives some delayed bite if you touch face with soapy hand.

Yes, it will get milder over time. I bet in a few weeks, it will feel much milder to you. But it may never be a soap that you want to use on your face, because 100% CO soap is very, very cleansing/drying - it strips all the oil off your skin.

This batch is easy on hands and I cut it once it cooled to barely warm on touch, it dries so fast I wonder if it ends up cracking down the road.

That's pretty typical for 100% CO soap. It sets up very, very fast. It sounds like you already like washing with it, which is great. Your first soap is a success!

 

[montana1]

If there is any delay, that is not a zap. A burning sensation is also not a zap. A zap is an immediate electric shock.

I see. Oddly, I was getting that strong immediate burn until about 4 hours in, also, the soap was burning more sensitive skin above my hands until then.
Initially the mix had sort of like tiny grains texture, it took hours before it evened out, this happened when it got to late mashed potato stage may be 3 hours in after I ramped up the heat.
If I took it off the stove early I wonder if I'd end up with grainy soap.
May be some tiny crystal cores didn't fully dissolve after all and formed those grains (visually there were no crystals left, but may be some were in suspension), I had used drain opening lyme which is crystals not powder. My early tests until 30 mins time showed grainy dark spots on litmus strips.

From what you described (delayed burning sensation), your soap was done long before you thought it was done.


Not necessarily, but it isn't a problem if it is zappy, because it will likely finish saponifying on its own. But again, as noted above, your soap wasn't actually zappy based on what you described.


Yes, it will get milder over time. I bet in a few weeks, it will feel much milder to you. But it may never be a soap that you want to use on your face, because 100% CO soap is very, very cleansing/drying - it strips all the oil off your skin.


That's pretty typical for 100% CO soap. It sets up very, very fast. It sounds like you already like washing with it, which is great. Your first soap is a success!

I probably shouldn't have used coconut only oil for my first ever soap, given its properties, but for the trial run just wanted to use something cheap not cutting into my organic oils supply so grabbed dollar store oil. Probably made it even faster-setting by adding 2 tablespoons of vinegar (I thought it was too limey and wanted to neutralize more). The soap texture does look good now and lathers really well.

 

[AliOop]

I see. Oddly, I was getting that strong immediate burn until about 4 hours in, also, the soap was burning more sensitive skin above my hands until then.

To me, a burn is not the same thing as an electric shock. But if it was significantly irritating to your skin, then you are right, it had not fully saponified at that point.

Probably made it even faster-setting by adding 2 tablespoons of vinegar (I thought it was too limey and wanted to neutralize more).

Kind of. Vinegar does create a soap releases more cleanly from the mold. But it also neutralizes lye, so this made your super fat even higher than the initial recipe.

The soap texture does look good now and lathers really well.

That's the most important.

 

[montana1]

To me, a burn is not the same thing as an electric shock. But if it was significantly irritating to your skin, then you are right, it had not fully saponified at that point.

I'd say there was a marked change in the look and texture at about 3 hours in when it started to solidify into smooth even-looking substance (that's when I thought here I have the soap, finally, just the gut feeling). Until then it seemed like grainy sauce, and I wondered if I'd end up with grainy stuff, not sure may be I had ricing, initially, just the clumps were very tiny - no stick blender, made it harder.

 

[akseattle]

@montana1 I've never made hot process soap, only cold process soap. What you described seems crazy complicated and labor intensive.
Relatively speaking, cold process is pretty simple ....

It sounds like your soap turned out fine- so that's great news!!
if you found that too labor intensive, maybe try cold process soap?

 

[montana1]

@montana1 I've never made hot process soap, only cold process soap. What you described seems crazy complicated and labor intensive.
Relatively speaking, cold process is pretty simple ....

It sounds like your soap turned out fine- so that's great news!!
if you found that too labor intensive, maybe try cold process soap?

Wasn't bad, I enjoyed the process. I was cooking it outside sitting the backyard and checking on the soap every 15 minutes. It's no different from cooking a dinner.
I don't have capacity to cure cold process soap properly because of travels and relocation. I like that most of the lye gets to react right away in HP process. CP I guess is better for making designs, but I like rustic soap for personal use.
Traditional Aleppo soap (one of my favorites) is cooked for 2 days, 5 hours wasn't too bad, anyway it's supposed to be only up to 1 hour of cooking time max when everything is right.

 

[artemis]

Ok. So, HP soap still has to cure. If you mean saponify, or become zap free, most CP soap has done that within 48 hours. And, if you force gel in an oven. It speeds up saponification. It's like the best of both worlds, to me. I don't have to babysit a pot of soap or worry about stages, and I get to cut in a reasonable amount of time.

I wish @earlene was still around-- she used to soap while traveling! In hotel rooms, even!

 

[montana1]

Ok. So, HP soap still has to cure. If you mean saponify, or become zap free, most CP soap has done that within 48 hours. And, if you force gel in an oven. It speeds up saponification. It's like the best of both worlds, to me. I don't have to babysit a pot of soap or worry about stages, and I get to cut in a reasonable amount of time.

I wish @earlene was still around-- she used to soap while traveling! In hotel rooms, even!

I heard there's less chance of lye heavy soap with HP. I won't be doing zap tests again for medical reasons just don't want to worry about lye and when soap is safe to use. The one I made yesterday, it was fully hardened quickly and I had already used it to wash hands to check it, it was lathering normally, with CP I think it'd take long time, one can use CP soap earlier supposedly but I really don't want to worry about lye and soap not hardening. I will cure HP soap but can just trow it on a top shelf in RV once it's cooled and forget about it. People weight those CP soaps, apparently, often. Easier to just cook it and be done with it.
Also I'd like to add hot-preparation herbal extract in the future and heat would be less destructive to it than lye if I add it closer to the end.
I also wonder why traditional soaps always were HP.
The one from yesterday will last me for quite a while and I'm not even finished with the soap already have... I do want to make own liquid laundry/dish detergent though next.
1 hour cook time is really nothing, cooking meals is no less involved. I can try cold process in the future once I settle down.

 

[artemis]

I heard there's less chance of lye heavy soap with HP....

I'm not trying to talk you into CP. However, I do want to clear up a few things for other people new to soap making who might read this thread.

1. The way to ensure you don't have lye heavy soap is to run your recipe through a lye calculator and be sure your measurements are accurate with a scale. HP vs CP doesn't make a difference in that respect. I suspect what you have heard is that saponification (the chemical reaction that converts lye+fats to soap) is complete faster with HP.

2. With the recipe you chose, the soap would have been hard very quickly with CP as well. 100% coconut oil soaps set up very quicky and can be cut in just a couple of hours in some cases.

3. I don't know anyone who is weighing there soap, often or otherwise. People who sell their soap weigh it before labeling whether HP or CP for accurate labeling. I have heard of people weighing regularly as an experiment.

4. Space to cure: As a small time hobby soaper, I only need a cardboard box with space for air move and a shelf to cure the latest batch.

5. One can use CP earlier. As soon as saponification is complete, it is safe to use. That is why the zap test is important
Even with HP (see #1 above). I'm sorry your medical condition prevents you from zap testing. But, as I mentioned, you shouldn't have much need in either situation with a trusted recipe.

6: as for traditional recipes always being HP, I'm not sure what you mean. If you're referring to traditionally made Aleppo soap, I think that may have to do with the type of lye they use and the amount of water. When I have seen the process done, to soap is always very fluid and runny when it is poured. If you are talking about recipes our great-grandmothers used, that was due to the type of lye. We have the benefit of purchasing consistently reliable lye from the hardware store. They did not.

7. This one is just a heads up to you: 100% coconut oil soap is very soluble and may use up faster than you expect. If you are not a daily showerer, they still may last you a good while.

Enjoy your new soap! A lot of people do really like a 100% CO soap. My husband is one. He particularly likes when I make a salt soap for him.

 

[AliOop]

I agree with @artemis - there is no difference between CP and HP when it comes to lye-heavy soap. Excess lye comes from your recipe, not your process. The "cooking" just takes a little longer in CP because it happens on its own. But as @artemis pointed out, you can also speed up CP by using the CPOP process. You can search for more information about that using the search icon at the top of the page.

Failing to mix your lye solution until it is clear can result in undissolved lye crystals throughout your soap, which is dangerous to the skin. But that's technically different than a lye-heavy soap. Also, that problem can not be fixed by cooking the soap. A soap with undissolved lye crystals needs to be tossed out, no matter how you made it.

Until you really understand soap chemistry, it's not wise to add things like vinegar or other ingredients to the soap, just because your batter "seems" to be this way or that way. What you experienced with your soap was related mostly to your unusual process, including:

1. No stickblender. There are folks who never use one, and only hand-stir. That's fine as long as you fully understand the consequences of that choice. Most soapers do use a stickblender to ensure complete mixing of the lye with the fats, and to speed up saponification. Getting to full saponification (i.e., no active lye remaining) without having to zap-test appears high on your list of concerns. For that reason, consider purchasing an inexpensive one at a big box store, or a thrift store. You also would be far less likely to see the grainy separation, or to need the super long cook time.

2. Water bath - as already noted above, this is completely unnecessary. Your heavy-bottomed stainless pot can go right on the burner.

3. Uncovered pot - as already noted above, this significantly extended the cook time. But if you aren't using a stickblender, you do need to stir quite a bit throughout the process, making it harder to keep the soap covered and prevent so much water loss.

4. Not enough water - as noted above, a 3:1 water:lye ratio is more typical for HP soap.

5. Adding vinegar - this "used up" some of your lye, making it harder, in a sense, for the soap to fully saponify. Your starting recipe already had a 20% superfat before you added vinegar. Now it has significantly more superfat. Be aware that such a high superfat means the soap can go rancid much more easily, and that it will leave a lot of soap scum in your pipes. For someone living in an RV, you definitely don't want clogged pipes. So for future batches, it's best not to add things until you know all the consequences.

Please understand, I don't say all this to criticize you. We really want to help you, but it seems like you are somewhat resistant to all the information that has been shared. Folks here are pretty knowledgeable and generous with help, because we want you to enjoy successful soapmaking. I assure you, the information on this forum is way more reliable than you will get in most places.

We get that there is a lot of conflicting information out there, but as @artemis pointed out, some of it is just false, and some of it is based factors which aren't apparent to someone who is new to soaping. If you'd like to know more about the science that goes into soaping, I highly recommend that you read this website, written by one of our members here.

 

[Nona'sFarm]

@montana1 , I used to make HP soap more often, but decided I prefer what I can do with CP soap. For HP, I used the double boiler method, left the top off, stirred often, used a 25% lye solution, usually cured 4-6 weeks. It usually took about an hour to reach vaseline stage. Cooking outside may have kept your solution a little cooler and therefore the longer cook time to reach vaseline stage. So a top may be helpful. I did not try to do swirl designs with HP, which is what drew me to CP. Also my HP always had a rustic look.
Use the lookup feature on here to read as much as you can on HP soap as it is a little bit of a different animal from CP. One of the pluses for HP is that you can use less fragrance than CP. Wish we had a separate section on here for hot process, yes it's a lye process, but to me there are many unique nuances.
Using a soap calculator will help with amount of lye & water. Keeping your batch sizes 16 oz of oil or less will keep batch sizes relatively small as your space in an RV is limited. One contributor here, @Ozzietx is also soaping in an RV, it may be helpful to read his posts, too, even though he is using the CP method.

Edit: one difference, I realize, is that I did use a stick blender to bring HP soap to thick trace at the beginning of the cook. So if you want faster results, it may be a good idea to see if you can find a decent battery operated stick blender, since you are making soap outside.