Deanna, I have a question...

[newbie]

I think it's not fair to judge this soap on harshness this early.

BTZ, I don't add anything to the soap, no milks or anything. I have been using FO and colorants.

I can't seem to stay away from this recipe, as much as a I kind of hate it. I've noticed some cool things with the colorants so I had to try something last night to see what will happen. Last night it took the longest time ever- 4 hours. I briefly hand stirred every 15-30 minutes and at one point I did SB briefly. It so pissed me off. I think I may have had just a touch too much water compared to oils- that's my theory- because I just measured instead of weighing. I did an OO/Castor combo, but I did that once before and it took about an hour. After 3+ hours, I considered that I may have too much water, so in the most unscientific move ever, I just poured a couple dollops of OO in, figuring with a 40+% excess, I was probably okay to do so. It didn't take long after that to start thickening.

Every time I've made this soap, it has broken/separated and I've stirred it back to the thick plastic state. LAst night, it got very thick indeed but didn't break. If I stirred it certain ways, it would get glossy and slick looking, but if left it would start looking less smooth and very very slightly apple saucy. Because of the way it was sliding and moving, I decided to color and pour wondering if it would set, as AM said once that just taking it to trace did not work. About an hour later, i poked it and it had that same rubbery slippery consistency it had after breaking and being put back together. I just cut it (I'm sorry but cutting this before or at 24 hours is a sensual experience- not sexual- because of the glide of the knife and the incredible smoothness of the surface of the soap after cutting) and it is perfectly fine.

Relating this back to the frozen cheese soap, I can say that stirring it to what appears to be a thick trace but without the break in the emulsion, which was initially considered necessary, resulted in fine soap. I wonder if stirring to emulsion but not trace means that the water had not surrounded the soap in small enough particles or molecular groups, leaving the texture rough and chunky. Maybe this sounds stupid, too. I don't know.

 

[AnnaMarie]

Newbie, I love your spirit. Your kind of like me that way in that I don't like something to defeat me, and so I need to settle the score I am truly mystified at all the trouble you've have with this soap, but I love that you keep going
Cheers!
Anna Marie

 

[newbie]

I think I'm flipping insane.

 

[AnnaMarie]

I've been saying I should be certified for the last 6 months (long story)

 

[DeeAnna]

"...I think it's not fair to judge this soap on harshness this early...."

Oh, yes, I totally agree with you, Newbie. The fact that some of us are trying the soap out doesn't mean we're passing final judgement on it at all. I'm all for being patient -- I just want to tinker and experiment while I wait!

 

[newbie]

I suppose that typed out a little differently than I meant it. It sounded like I was slightly admonishing, perhaps, but I didn't mean it to be.

 

[krunt]

I made a -20% batch yesterday, everything seemed to go the same and I had no reason to think anything was wrong. I unmolded it not long ago, and this is what greeted me (see photo).

I did everything the same, so I'm kinda stumped as to why it didn't work out this time.

 

[AnnaMarie]

Hand stir or SB? Insulated or no?

 

[krunt]

Combination of hand stir and stick blend. I stick blended it to trace with the concentrated lye solution, and then hand stirred the additional water in, but gave it the odd blast with the stick blender after each water addition to make sure it was mixed.

I covered the mold with a cardboard box, so I guess you could say light insulation.

My previous 2 batches were both done in this same way and worked out fine. However, after giving it more thought, perhaps I didn't stir well enough. I got done stirring in less time than my previous batches, although I did feel sure it was still well mixed. It's really the only thing coming up as a possible explanation for me.

 

[soap_rat]

That looks a lot like what happened to someone else earlier, the very thin layer of good soap on what was the bottom of the mold, then lots of brownish liquid inside. Check out post 356 and earlier ones by FlyBy.

 

[AnnaMarie]

I got liquid when I used the SB. I got holes in my soap from over heating (probably over insulated). It's funny how much difference there is in this recipe between using an SB and hand stirring.

 

[DeeAnna]

Not to say I have the answer for you, but here's my thought.

For my second batch, I used the same technique as you -- blend to heavy trace with a little SB and a lot of hand stirring, add extra water, pour in mold. In looking back at my notes, when I added the extra water, I used the SB for only the first 1 or 2 water additions. I realized at that point that the water was going into the batter really nicely with only hand stirring, so I added the last 4 water additions with hand stirring only.

I think the strong mixing from the SB in this recipe does the opposite of what we're expecting -- it breaks down the soap emulsion in this batter rather than makes it stronger. We're trying to load the emulsion with more and more water which is making the whole structure more and more fragile, so a gentle touch is needed.

I'm with AnnaMarie -- hand stirring is the key. Where I (currently) differ with her is that I think a moderate amount of SB'ing is okay, especially at first. Maybe 30 seconds of SB'ing out of every 5 minutes with gentle hand stirring the rest of the time. Once it reaches trace, however, hand stir only.

I do reserve the right to change my tune if I make another batch using this method and have it break and make another mess! And I will also humbly take a well-deserved scolding from our Good Leader AM.

 

[seven]

DeeAnna, i can understand why your 2nd method works. bear in mind that i'm not a science person, so this is just from a logical pov. with your 2nd method, you SB first with the normal water amount, like we usually do when we make soap. the emulsion is already stable (batter has reach trace) when the extra water is added. so, the batter is absorbing the extra water slowly.

 

[DeeAnna]

Hi, Seven -- Yes, you have said it very well. The batter needs to absorb the extra water slowly. Hand mixing is the key. At least that's what I think is happening!

 

[ilovesoap2]

Ilovesoap2 -- You are much braver than I! Maybe we could market young superlye soaps as a whole-body-exfoliation product?

(I am seriously not serious with this idea, just in case someone is wondering!)

We could but I'ld be scared. We would tell people to leave on about 3 minutes then rinse, but they would think if 3 minutes work then 300 minutes would be better and probably burn themselves

I am a serious anti-ager though so I'm up for anything. Plus I'm always looking
for a remedy for these crusty heels.

 

[DeeAnna]

Soapmakers never die, they just burn off the years with lye.

Ugh. Even I think that one is pretty bad. :wtf:

 

[seven]

lolololllll DeeAnna! i have to admit though, i think i'm becoming rather immune with lye burns. sure it hurts, but i'm used to it now

 

[newbie]

AM- when you said normal SF level plus extra water did not work, in what way do you mean? Do you mean it did not produce a non-gooey castille or do you mean the batter did not take all the extra water?

 

[AnnaMarie]

AM- when you said normal SF level plus extra water did not work, in what way do you mean? Do you mean it did not produce a non-gooey castille or do you mean the batter did not take all the extra water?

I meant it did not produce a non-gooey bar. I didn't have a problem with the batter using the SB.

 

[DeeAnna]

MzMolly -- about your soap in Post 439 -- I found this info today that might relate to your troubles. It's from Kathy Millers' website in her article about troubleshooting. Maybe something she has to say will fit with your situation --

"...Soft and crumbly... soap that just wants to disintegrate when you cut it but when rubbed between the fingers produces an oiliness... is generally caused from inadequate mixing and saponification. There is usually a factor of too much heat loss during the stirring period. The smaller the batch, the quicker it will lose heat. With hand stirring, it could be from heat loss during stirring time and/or the stirring was not vigorous enough or until a real trace was reached. With a stick blender, it might be heat loss and too much mixing without frequent breaks, which created the illusion of trace when the thickening was really from hardening fat particles or emulsification.

"If the recipe you started with was quite small, you should raise your initial mixing temperatures. As an example, soap that might have been blended at 110 degrees would be mixed at 120 or 125 degrees. People who make really huge batches will often drop their temperature below 100 degrees since large batches retain and build up more heat after pouring. If the soap begins to look grainy right away after mixing in the lye solution, it's a good idea to apply some gentle bottom heat to the pot for a minute or two... until you see it smooth out and develop a satiny texture on the surface. You will be doing your stirring during this warming time. Then turn the burner OFF. For those using the stick blender, review the suggested stick blending technique on the “Modern Procedures Page” and be sure you mix in short bursts and turn the blender off and and stir in between. This will ensure that you are not fooled by a "false trace" and pour your soap before it's really ready...."