Deanna, I have a question...

[newbie]

Okay, if I wanted to make a solution of this soap to test it with a ph tester made for liquids, what sort of proportion would make sense? I can dissolved some grated soap in distilled water, but how much would give something accurate? I guess this is mostly a question for DeeAnna, but perhaps other people know as well.

 

[DeeAnna]

I'm basing my procedure on info I've gleaned from Scientific Soapmaking by Kevin Dunn.

Make a water and soap solution by dissolving about 1 gram of soap in about 100 grams of distilled water. Super accuracy is not required. Definitely do not use tap water -- distilled or reverse osmosis water only.
Calibrate the meter with pH 7.0 and 10.0 standards.
Be sure everything is more-or-less at room temperature to avoid adding error due to temperature to your pH check.
Test per the instruction manual.

To the best of my understanding, the soap should have a "natural" pH roughly between 10.7 and 11.2 if made with olive. If it has excess alkali, the pH will be higher than that.

 

[newbie]

Thank you! I thought it would be fun to check the pH as this soap ages. I'll post what I get when I do the test.

 

[krunt]

Hi again everyone,

I did this recipe again not too long ago, the difference being I only used 10% excess lye as opposed to 40%. I used the same method as last time, and everything appeared to go exactly the same. I only noticed a difference when I poured, and that was that the mixture was runnier (although it appeared the same thickness in the mixing pot), and it was a few degrees cooler (26 degrees Celsius vs 29). Just like last time it's maintaining it's temperature.

As per last time, I made a concentrated lye solution and mixed that into the oil until it traced, and then added the extra water in a bit at a time, stirring it in completely before adding more. This time around, I noticed that it reaches a point where it becomes "plasticky", where it was not like that with the previous water addition. It made me think that perhaps when it reaches that point, that is a sign of enough water -- that it is unnecessary to add any more water into the mix. I still had water to add when I reached that point, so I kept adding it, but I think that is definitely another variation to try in the future.

I will be interested to see if this batch is hard and ready to cut tomorrow (like the last batch), or if it will need more time in the mold.

So the reason for this batch is to see if a 10% lye excess (with excess water) is enough to produce non-gooey soap.


I worked out the lye excess of the recipe based on the 6-6-1 information Pilar provided (rather than the slightly altered version on the blog), and assuming I haven't made a mistake, it is around 33-35%, depending on how you work out the weight of the oil. I used an online calculator, and 2 different values from a locally produced olive oil's profile sheet.

 

[seven]

krunt, how much excess water did you add? 100% of oil weight?

 

[krunt]

The amount of water I used was oil weight + lye weight. For the batch I made today, that was a total of 574g of water (500g olive oil, 74g lye).

 

[DeeAnna]

Nice work, Krunt! I'm very interested to see how the soap turns out. It will be a data point for the lots-of-water but only -10% super-lye to balance our lots-of-water and -40% super-lye batches. It's intriguing to see how we've first figured out what technique is required and now are working on what the proportions of the lye and water can be in proportion to the oils used.

Bear in mind that the emulsion might be sensitive to temperature. Don't know this to be true -- just a thought to consider. I was looking at the notes I took during my 2nd batch in which I used the same method as you -- add the 50% lye solution, bring to trace, then stir in the extra water. This batter did not go through a plastic-y stage at all; it just looked and acted like normal soap batter. This batter was slightly warmer than yours -- about 32 C (90 F) at the point when all the water had been added to the soap.

 

[AnnaMarie]

Just a little update, I have tested castile (not lye heavy) with larger amounts of water several years ago and the results were more gooey soap. That being said, I would still encourage experimentation

My hand stirred batch is doing fine. Interestingly, it has developed very few, if any lye crystals as compared with the SB'd batch. Hmmmm...more old school magic???

Finally, I did a 5% lye reduction batch a couple of days ago. For me, the lye calculator was showing a -38.5 superfat, so I went up to -32.5%. I quartered this recipe, and it traced by hand stirring within a couple minutes. Wondering if volume is related to the stir time? Anyway, everything went the same, and the soap is rock hard. I will try soaking a bar for a couple hours in water to see if it passes the "goo" test. I really think that a 5% reduction in lye will cause little change in this recipe. I'll try 10% eventually and see what happens.

 

[krunt]

I unmolded and cut my 10% excess lye batch a couple hours ago. It came out of the mold easier than the 40% excess lye batch. It is firm, but quite "moist" and I can easily squish it between my fingers. It was very easy to cut. The -40% batch was almost rock hard when I unmolded and cut it.

DeeAnna, with my -10% batch, I had the same effect as you did with your olive oil batch, with the darker bit in the middle of the bars from the centre of the loaf (see photo). I didn't apply any heat whatsoever though, and had just a cardboard box over the loaf during saponification. I also have what appears to be oil spots in a few bars, also visible in the photo. There doesn't appear to be any pattern to them though, as they appear on end bars as well as middle bars.

I intend to do -20% & -30% batches over the next couple of weeks. Will keep in touch as I do them.

 

[AnnaMarie]

And we will meet in the middle :-D

 

[btz]

AnnaMarie and DeeAnna.. i am far away from you guys (Indonesia). and while you guys are lucky to have priority flat rate envelopes/boxes, we have no such thing here. everything is weigh by 500 gr, and the rates are ridiculously expensive i can go on and on about our crappy postal system but i think i better spare you from it.

i was gonna join last BB swap but didnt coz they say it's gonna cost me 40 bucks. for 40 bucks, i can get 2 sacks of lye, 25kg x 2.

I'm from Indonesia too . And I agree about the international shipping cost, it's so expensive to sent item out of the country.

I had to return a cd once that I bought from Japan, it cost around twice of what I paid to send it here in the firat place.

 

[seven]

I'm from Indonesia too . And I agree about the international shipping cost, it's so expensive to sent item out of the country.

I had to return a cd once that I bought from Japan, it cost around twice of what I paid to send it here in the firat place.

wow! halo, nice to see a fellow indonesian here yep, i agree, our kantor pos sucks! do you know that they take shipping cost into calculations when deciding for the *ahem* tax we have to pay when it's above 50 bucks? and one time they didn't give me a receipt!

 

[btz]

wow! halo, nice to see a fellow indonesian here yep, i agree, our kantor pos sucks! do you know that they take shipping cost into calculations when deciding for the *ahem* tax we have to pay when it's above 50 bucks? and one time they didn't give me a receipt!

l know it all to well. I bet my bea cukai nightmare stories are worse than yours, lol. My family like to order books, cd and dvd from overseas. Once, my sister order a photobook from Japan. It was less than $50 including shipping, but she still have to pay the custom tax :cry:. Apparenty that happened to all incoming package via DHL, and yes, no slip from the post office. We have to pay, no option. The extra cost was around $25 if I remember correctly.

 

[newbie]

SOmeone just posted that they did their recipe accidentally with water weight equal to the oils weight, but normal lye amount. He got it together but it broke overnight. I'm hoping he will try to blend it back together and see if it works. It would be an interesting variation on this- excess water but lye discount. I posted the link to this thread. I hope he tries to save it and posts his results. We may have another experiment in the works!!

 

[seven]

@btz
arrgghh.. bea cukai! tell me about it! i bloody hate them!


@newbie
i instantly remember this one as i read that thread, lol. scary that he/she has 3 times the maximum water amount. and he/she doesn't have the excess lye like we do here.

 

[newbie]

I'm hoping he tries to blend it together. Who knows? It could lead to some interesting things. With this recipe and some of the ways Alaskan Beauty soaps, it's clear that there are rules which can be broken successfully or ideas that can be challenged.

 

[Alaska beauty]

Thanks. But.... I will recomend to do opposite-
1. Don't mix it at all. Live soap along. let extra water concentrate on top of your soap- some times it's happened. Did you see curious-soapmaker mono soaps tutorial , specially one with jojoba? This is exactly the same problem- to much water.
2. Or cook it until all extra water evaporate. Lil separation during cooking can happen, just mix it a lill bit.
Good luck.

 

[newbie]

THe guy who posted said he had a big layer of oil on top, but with 3x the water amount, I wonder if it's all oil. He didn't post too many other details of the separation so I can't comment on that, really.

 

[DeeAnna]

Well, here's my update on my two soaps.

Both are continuing to lose weight, but I'd say the rate of weight loss for batch 1 (the homely soap that cleaned my oven) is starting to stabilize. Batch 2 (the pretty soap) has lost a whopping 1/3 of its original starting weight, and it's not done yet.

The darker, softer centers of the bars from Batch 1 are getting smaller but are still soft. The lighter pale-yellow areas around the soft spots are very firm -- I cannot possibly dent these areas with hard pressure from my fingers. You can see a bit of pure white ash on the top of the bar that is upright.

The bars in Batch 2 are staying an attractive ivory. All surfaces are covered with fine white ash. The tops have an especially thick coating of ash -- they look like they've been dusted with fine confectioner's sugar as you can see. These bars cannot be dented with hard finger pressure.

Both soaps are absolutely zap free inside and out. There is no metallic, salty, zappy flavor anywhere -- they are completely bland.

I tested the lather on my hands. First I gently scrubbed off the ash from the outer surfaces -- this definitely cuts the lathering ability of the soaps. I then rubbed each soap 20 times over one wet hand, adding a bit of cool water as needed for lubrication. I then rubbed both hands together 10 times to develop the lather and took a photo of my hand immediately after.

The wet soaps are slick and slippery, which I associate with soap made only with water and no other additives. I don't get any sense of unusual slimy-ness, but I'm not a castile "slime expert" -- I can only compare these soaps with my usual bath soaps.

Both soaps lathered well, with a nice range of bubble sizes. The Batch 1 bar had slightly fluffier bubbles -- this is the 100% olive soap. The Batch 2 bar had slightly denser, creamier bubbles -- this is the 70% high-oleic safflower and 30% lard soap. I could be happy with the lather from either one, quite frankly.

My hands, now that they've dried off, feel slightly taut, but are not irritated, red, or rough. The skin feel is very slightly lotiony and my hands are slightly shiny, which is a surprise -- last time I checked the lather, my hands felt more dry and dull, and that was what I was expecting this time. I'd say these soaps are slightly harsh yet, but improving.

 

[newbie]

Ah DeeAnna, we are neck and neck!!! I tried mine out late last night but it was 2 am so I didn't take a picture of my lather. It was almost exactly as shown in your picture. I used one of my sway back bars and I had the exact same sense you did; the bar is very slick and a touch slimy feeling but the lather was not. Also, my hands were also a bit taut and shiny. Also not zap or tingle at all. I have only a 100% OO bar.