Dealing with Glass Advocates

[thinkativeone]

I'm not sure if that's a good title, but it's the best I can think of at the time. ETA: There's been a small controversy over the title. It's not meant to be read as derogatory, just matter-of-fact and broad-reaching regarding lye solution use. And I'm unable to edit it.

We've probably all been there, right? There's that person who vehemently defends glass as a receptacle for lye solution, maybe says they've been using this glass for generations with lye solution and not even a hint of an issue (etching). Perhaps they continually expound upon how old glass/chemical grade glass are the same and safe to use, and because of that, they tell others they can use glass too (who most likely don't realize the differences. ETA: this is what concerns me the most: how best to prevent them becoming hurt from this information). However, all glass etches and becomes unsafe to use, including laboratory grade glass. I feel like I need more details from those with chemistry backgrounds here on how laboratories use them safely. Such as, when do they dispose of the glass and purchase new? Have they ever dealt with shattering glass in a laboratory environment from lye? I am sure they follow some sort of protocol in order to use glass, I just need to be more familiar with that. :grin:

 

[CanaDawn]

Labware (and old Pyrex pre 1998 ) are borosilicate glass (vs soda-lime). It's much more resistant to alkali.

Speaking only from my own experience: In six years in a biology lab, preparing all kinds of solutions, including strong acids and alkalis, I've seen exactly ONE very large Erlenmyer flask shatter (without being dropped or having something dropped on it), and that was because it was flawed, and overheated, and then bumped. (Yes, I think it was a Monday....the technician was not amused...) It didn't contain lye. We don't use any glassware specifically for lye, don't use lye daily, and don't have a protocol for using glass that I am aware of (other than we use labware and never ordinary household glassware). We do use some disposable things like test tubes, but they are also borosilicate glass.

Lab glassware can be and is chosen to be specifically resistant to what is being used.

possibly this is useful: http://www.nationalscientific.com/support/pdf/NS-ChemicalResistanceReferenceCharts.pdf

http://www.duran-group.com/en/about-duran/duran-properties/chemical-properties.html
DURAN® corresponds to Class 2 of the glasses divided into 3 alkali classes in accordance with DIN ISO 695. The surface erosion after 3 hours boiling in a mixture of equal volume fractions of sodium hydroxide solution (concentration 1 mol/l) and sodium carbonate solution (concentration 0.5 mol/l) is only 134 mg/100 cm2.

I wonder if when people hear "etching" they think about the kind used in crafts, using hydroflouric acid, which happens very quickly. Borosilicate doesn't etch like that with lye, especially not at lower temperatures (<100C).

I also wonder if the shattering people experience is etching related, or temperature related. Soda-lime glass is also less resistant to temperature than borosilicate. Glass doesn't do well when it is hot on one side and cold on the other side of the vessel.

 

[rogue]

I used to work in the micro lab as a TA in school and was warned about my "asbestos fingers" pulling things out of the autoclave too hot and setting them down on the lab table. Apparently the only shattering anybody in any of our labs ever saw were rapid temp changes in dry or nearly dry glass ware.

 

[CanaDawn]

What is your end-goal with talking to or "dealing with" people who use glass for their lye? You can't enforce a level of risk aversion they don't possess, there's no legislation, and what they tell others is entirely out of your control...once you've passed along the information about the possibility of etching.....you're done?!?

 

[navigator9]

Just a thought.....early on in my soapmaking days I switched to a stainless steel saucepan for making my lye solution, after I read about etching. I find that I like it much better, because if I want to cool the lye solution quickly, I can put it in a bowl of ice water, no worries.

 

[thinkativeone]

What is your end-goal with talking to or "dealing with" people who use glass for their lye? You can't enforce a level of risk aversion they don't possess, there's no legislation, and what they tell others is entirely out of your control...once you've passed along the information about the possibility of etching.....you're done?!?

My end-goal was to ask people here how they handle this.

I am aware of the difference between soda lime glass and borosilicate, but I should have put that in my first post.

When I first joined this forum, I was told that ALL glass should not be used, and that while laboratory grade (and old borosilicate) is better, it still becomes damaged over time and is prohibitively expensive. Perhaps it's changed on here since? Are there members that use and advocate laboratory-grade glass for lye solutions here now?

You appear to have taken the word "dealing" in the title of my post negatively. I assure you that there are no negative connotations attached to this application of the word. The dictionary defines "dealing" as "conduct in relation to others; treatment" which is exactly how it was meant to perform here. I don't understand why you seem so upset with all your "?!?". There is nothing here that should provoke such a reaction. I have certainly not tried to make others change their ways. What I dislike is information being passed on to new soapers that is incomplete and can cause harm. If you are going to respond with "it's out of your hands" that's a rather moot point. Education and a better way to pass on education/handle relations with others is always a great thing - sometimes it just takes the right way to do it and that's what my post was all about - asking experienced and safe soapers how they have handled such circumstances. And my understanding is not that etching is a "possibility" it is a given. If wrong, correct with scientific proof. I would be happy to link you to one of the many threads on here that stated not to use any glass, and why. You seem to feel differently, so perhaps the climate here has changed.

 

[HoneyLady]

thinkativeone --

It's the downside of the internet and forums. Until they invent a sarcasm font, and a way to clearly pass on the intended tone of "voice", sometimes things don't come across the way we intend them to. :angel:

It'll happen to everyone sooner or later. :roll: Emoticons help.

I too found the tone of your original post to be a tad confrontational:
that person who vehemently defends glass
been using this glass for generations
continually expound upon
because of that, they tell others
But I waived it off, knowing how easy it is to come across the wrong way. I own several of those T-shirts. {sigh}

Personally, I have *never* heard of etching in lab glass, or long-term degradation from lye exposure. But then, I'm not a chem major, either. I can see why you'd ask about it, if you have heard stories. Neither have I *ever* heard a soapmaker swear vehemently that they are using glass for generations safely, nor expound upon it to others. If I had, I'd probably wonder, too.

I have had occasion to be grateful I don't have to boil soap in my great-grandmother's cast iron kettle over a hot fire for several hours. And sooner or later, we all run into that {deleted} {deleted} who insists REAL soap can be made without any lye whatsoever, the end, Amen. We can all roll our eyes at that one.

No matter what Cana or I thought we "heard", or what you intended, don't take it personally. Que sera, sera. It's the downside of the internet. It happens. Pass around chocolate -- it always helps.

Now, let's agree to be friends, and poke through each other's FO stash for ideas. I have some fruity scents I'd like to trade, do you have some good men's scents? . . . Pax.

~HoneyLady~

 

[thinkativeone]

Understood, honeylady! I tend to forget to use emoticons a lot of the time, and people think I'm being harsh when I'm not - I mean to speak in a matter-of-fact, blunt sort of way that is devoid of emotion. I'm only allowed a few emotes per post on this forum, too. Nothing was meant to be confrontational about it, simply generic. I wasn't pointing the finger at anyone here, either - this was just a conversational piece. But I have met people like this several times before (vehement, irritable, tells everyone who will listen it's safe to use glass and is very willing to argue the point with misinformation - yep, even heard the "I've used this glass for generations" too - odd huh?). I can't possibly be the only one that worries? I guess I'm just trying to find out how your safety-oriented soapmaker rationale comes into play with them. It made me wonder, and all this has certainly surprised me. I have taken a beating on this forum before for using glass once (when I first started - a lot of books say to use glass), and discontinued using it immediately after. But at the time some posters were really exasperated/irritated about other people and making implications about how it was useless to even bother. But in my case it wasn't useless, if you see what I mean. Some people can be approached - I don't find browbeating them to be helpful, though! That's definitely not what I am doing or plan to do.

No FO's here, I use organic EOs due to fragrance sensitivities, and my stash is still relatively small since I mostly use unscented (my skin can be picky from time to time).

 

[kylie_au]

I know there is a lot of debate around this subject, and you certainly do get those few who are right no matter what, lol.

I love pyrex jugs, but i never ever use them for lye mixing.
I only use plastic - heavy duty plastic that is. if i get my hands on a stainless steel jug, then i would use it.
my soap pots are stainless steel - this has the added bonus of being able to be dunked in ice water for quick cooling of nasty accellerating fo's and such and for keeping milk soap really cool when you just have to have it as white as possible.
( i do not use whiteners for my milk soap, so my honey oats & GM is a caramel colour mostly, and nearly smells like caramel.)

Many plastics can and will blister over time, so only the heavy duty ones are good for soap, IMHO

 

[thinkativeone]

That's true. I only use plastic labeled PP 5 for mixing up lye solution, and HDPE for storage since it doesn't handle boiling liquids quite as well as PP 5. Either those or stainless steel, and that isn't an expensive solution either if plastic is not wanted.

Let me ask another question: What do you say when someone thinks it's bad to use plastic (PP 5), because they state tiny bits of plastic will "shear off" (not the best choice of words there, hopefully you guys know what I mean) into the soap bars? I thought this was a busted myth.

 

[Corinne]

Because of my own personal experience with glass in college chem labs, I've chosen to use lab-grade glass in my lye mixing. I have only ever seen one glass break in the lab, and that was due to over-heating of an imperfect container. I advised the student who used it to discard the container, as it had a small knick in it. Obviously he didn't listen (people my age are often quite oblivious and stupid, so I take no offense at insults to my generation lol). Anyway, I ALWAYS give my glassware a brief once-over before each use, to make sure there are no knicks or imperfections in them. Of course, I'm not perfect so I always wear thick rubber gloves, and am prepared with a water hose and vinegar for the table/floor if necessary. In my own opinion, I feel safer with these precautions than with plastics which may melt or release harmful or unwanted chemicals due to heat. It's just my personal preference.

On a side note, aren't there stainless steel candle "pourers" or whatever they're called? I think in the long run I'd feel safer with all stainless steel but I think there just isn't enough catered towards soap making yet.

Edit: Oh, there are SS frothing pitchers for coffee and such. Definitely something I'll keep in mind.

 

[rogue]

I think that's what makes people start thinking glass sounds like a good idea, the whole," hey, my plastic container is getting mighty squishy here at like 220deg F. I wonder if it's melting a little there?" I usually mix my lye in the poury funnel like cup things that of course don't have any markings when I just went to go look just now. They feel LESS melty and I can hook the handle over the edge of the ice water bowl.

I will set up lye water in the am before I go to work in a 500 ml or 1L Erlenmeyer flask so it's dead room temp when I get home. I live dangerously. I bought myself an inexpensive student set of beakers & flasks this year. Awesome for making lotions and holding eo/fo's etc.

 

[CanaDawn]

You appear to have taken the word "dealing" in the title of my post negatively. I assure you that there are no negative connotations attached to this application of the word. The dictionary defines "dealing" as "conduct in relation to others; treatment" which is exactly how it was meant to perform here.

Yup. I understand the word. I wasn't sure why you felt you had to treat "glass advocates" in any particular way. You disagree with their choice, because you believe it is unsafe, you decide to tell them about your choice and your reasons, and that's that. They take it from there, or they don't. Education is as much about the recipient's choice as it is about the provider's intent.

I don't understand why you seem so upset with all your "?!?". There is nothing here that should provoke such a reaction.

"all" meaning the ONE time I did that? I'm not upset, just slightly baffled.

What I dislike is information being passed on to new soapers that is incomplete and can cause harm. If you are going to respond with "it's out of your hands" that's a rather moot point.

well, not really. You can talk to people, but you aren't going to be the one who decides what they do with what you say. At some point, you probably have to either avoid them, or avoid the topic, because if they don't want to change, they won't. I suppose if you know they are passing along poor information, because you witness it, you can do an end-run and discuss your concerns with the person they shared with, but what they do without you is not something you can change.

Education and a better way to pass on education/handle relations with others is always a great thing - sometimes it just takes the right way to do it and that's what my post was all about - asking experienced and safe soapers how they have handled such circumstances.

Fair enough, I guess. You explain that strong alkali (lye, in soaping) can etch glass and make it unsafe (although I am still not entirely convinced we're not dealing with thermal shock vs etching). Then you're done. I just really do think there's not much else you CAN do or say. I don't understand what you can hope to do beyond that....you explain the effect, and the risk, and hope the person you are speaking to feels the same or can/will change their mind.

And my understanding is not that etching is a "possibility" it is a given. If wrong, correct with scientific proof.

Did you go to the scientific links I already provided? The doubt in my mind is if the etching is sufficient on borosilicate glass to appreciably weaken the glassware to the point that it becomes hazardous, in normal use.

I would be happy to link you to one of the many threads on here that stated not to use any glass, and why. You seem to feel differently, so perhaps the climate here has changed.

Much as I love the information and discussion on these forums, a link to a thread is NOT a scientific reference. (By this I mean no disrespect to the great contributors and their work and words, just responding to the request for "scientific proof" followed by the offer of forum links as proof...I'm a scientist, so I may think about "proof" and "references" slightly differently...) There is much good information, but we may not all agree with each other.

I don't know what climate you refer to, I just replied to your question with two links, a chart showing how alkali affects borosilicate glass, and my own experience in a lab, which seems to line up strongly with that of other lab experienced people who are responding. (thermal shock shattering, but not chemical damage shattering)

Borosilicate glass 3.3 meets class 2 of DIN ISO 695

Anecdotal, but relevant: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13476#pid173215
"I have a old glass bottle filled with 12.5 molar NaOH (It's been sitting in my base cabinet for about 10 years at least)" (we're generally using somewhat less than 12.5M NaOH (a 50/50 solution), although at higher than room temperature....but constant contact for TEN YEARS is a long time!)

 

[CanaDawn]

:idea: I may still be misunderstanding your request though: I suddenly think perhaps you don't want information about glass types and lye etching, but just how to broach your concerns with people who don't share them, or who hold contrary opinions - Lye etches glass and therefore you feel,and have been told by people you respect, that it is a highly dangerous practice to use glass in soaping, and want to express that to people who either don't know or don't care about that information, with the intention of influencing their practices. Is that right? If so, I think I stand by my first response, in that you simply don't have that degree of control of anyone else, and once you've explained your position you may have to accept their ignorance/opinion as unchangeable. It's tough to accept, and I know it (see all the stuff I posted? ) but I"m trying to learn that omnipotence does not seem to be in the cards for my life path, after all.

 

[CanaDawn]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1151-2916.1991.tb04096.x/abstract

 

[thinkativeone]

Yup. I understand the word. I wasn't sure why you felt you had to treat "glass advocates" in any particular way. You disagree with their choice, because you believe it is unsafe, you decide to tell them about your choice and your reasons, and that's that. They take it from there, or they don't. Education is as much about the recipient's choice as it is about the provider's intent.



"all" meaning the ONE time I did that? I'm not upset, just slightly baffled.

You understand the word, but you were taking negative connotations not there from it - from other uses you have encountered, most likely - I'm imagining "Dealing with Difficult People" the book as to what you could have envisioned. The "glass advocates" pertained to a very specific USE of glass (I use glass for other things and like it), and strong advocation of glass for lye solution to other people who are not aware of the history (the switch from borosilicate to soda lime, for example). Also I did not say many times, I was merely attempting to point out what seemed to me an accusatory post based on your emphasis on "dealing with" and rather insistent way of (?!?) stating that nothing could be done and to move along. You seem to think I was being accusatory. I was not. It's clear my tone is not being taken by you the way I would like for it to be represented. Really, it's not a big deal to me, except it's tiring to have to consistently explain myself over and over in several messages (I'll get to your next one shortly). I'm a frank, black-and-white, blunt person of the melancholy, serious type. I don't feel harshly towards people that choose to use Anchor Hocking they buy at Walmart - if that's what they want to do and they know about the safety implications that's their choice. I'll follow up with more about that below.

well, not really. You can talk to people, but you aren't going to be the one who decides what they do with what you say. At some point, you probably have to either avoid them, or avoid the topic, because if they don't want to change, they won't. I suppose if you know they are passing along poor information, because you witness it, you can do an end-run and discuss your concerns with the person they shared with, but what they do without you is not something you can change.

You took this part out of context, until you said "fair enough" in the next part. It wasn't meant to be separated, it was meant to go hand in hand with my views on how it's important to find a good way to broach the subject. Okay, so above I said I'd post more on that. Here we go - note the boldened section of your comment. This is exactly what I encountered in a group setting - I did witness them passing along poor information to people, who in fact, were uninitiated to soaping enough that they wanted to know how to make soap without any lye. This is why I brought up this thread to begin with. The people in question can do what they wish for themselves and I can't change that (frankly, I could care less) but what troubles me is, as you put it, passing along poor information.

Fair enough, I guess. You explain that strong alkali (lye, in soaping) can etch glass and make it unsafe (although I am still not entirely convinced we're not dealing with thermal shock vs etching). Then you're done. I just really do think there's not much else you CAN do or say. I don't understand what you can hope to do beyond that....you explain the effect, and the risk, and hope the person you are speaking to feels the same or can/will change their mind.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, I understand where you are coming from. Perhaps there are others on here that can state what they do, if anything. I know everyone feels differently. While I think there may be a way to do it, others won't and that's just the way the world works. Where would we be if everyone had the same opinion on everything?

Did you go to the scientific links I already provided? The doubt in my mind is if the etching is sufficient on borosilicate glass to appreciably weaken the glassware to the point that it becomes hazardous, in normal use. Much as I love the information and discussion on these forums, a link to a thread is NOT a scientific reference. (By this I mean no disrespect to the great contributors and their work and words, just responding to the request for "scientific proof" followed by the offer of forum links as proof...I'm a scientist, so I may think about "proof" and "references" slightly differently...) There is much good information, but we may not all agree with each other. :smile:

Yes. Thanks for that. It's been discussed on here many times - this is not a novel approach by me to bring up glass etching/fracturing/explosions due to it over time from lye solution. The "how to search on soapmaking forum like a pro" thread and keying in some related terms from instructions therein will bring up a host of discussions about it. Which I realize you probably won't have much use for, from what you've stated already, but they are interesting to read nonetheless.

I never actually said or meant to imply that it was a scientific reference or claimed to be - I was making a point about how in the past when I've been on here (i.e. this is what I meant by "climate") using glass got me seriously bashed and (eventually, after asking more questions) an explanation as to WHY (based in science, though I did not specify this). However, for proof I do recall other people that work in labs discussing this as well on Soap Making Forum confirming such findings. The thread I spoke of before had IrishLass's contribution that I admired, but I won't quote it without her permission, and the chemists were in other archived threads. I enjoy learning how things work, and chemists have confirmed etching which is why I'm good with their logic. It was then (to me) apropos to ask you to point out with proof if you feel this is wrong. I would like to stay up-to-date on the subject but so far I haven't read anything disproving the subject - yet. So, it does not appear we disagree on what does or doesn't constitute proof at all. I'm all for checking out references and digging into them.

I don't know what climate you refer to, I just replied to your question with two links, a chart showing how alkali affects borosilicate glass, and my own experience in a lab, which seems to line up strongly with that of other lab experienced people who are responding. (thermal shock shattering, but not chemical damage shattering)

Borosilicate glass 3.3 meets class 2 of DIN ISO 695

Anecdotal, but relevant: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13476#pid173215
"I have a old glass bottle filled with 12.5 molar NaOH (It's been sitting in my base cabinet for about 10 years at least)" (we're generally using somewhat less than 12.5M NaOH (a 50/50 solution), although at higher than room temperature....but constant contact for TEN YEARS is a long time!)

And it's great stuff, and answered my curiosity as to whether anyone had seen chemical grade glass shatter due to lye solution use (not enough usage to know). The climate referred to on the forum, which used to have a lot of "no glass whatsoever!" folks. Maybe they're still about and we've scared them off. Maybe not. Know that I have read all that you've supplied. But, for me it was disconcerting to read your informational post, then to see you later post a second time out of the blue dissecting my post and trying to place animosity where there was none. I can be wordy, I can be blunt, I can be sarcastic and very dry-witted as that is my lot. But no offense was placed inside what I posted here.

 

[Susie]

I found a stainless steel 64 oz bain marie at a local restaurant supply store. I bought one, then went back and got another. Just the perfect size and shape for mixing lye and water in, and then mixing lye water and oils in. No worries about plastic flecks or glass shatters. They were only $11 each for the size I bought. And since I should never have to get more(ever), it is not that high a price.

And as for how you deal with those people, you should just walk away. If you have informed them of what the safe containers should be made of, any problems they have are their problems.

I also think that posts in this thread are getting a bit heated. Please, take some deep breaths, folks!

 

[thinkativeone]

:idea: I may still be misunderstanding your request though: I suddenly think perhaps you don't want information about glass types and lye etching, but just how to broach your concerns with people who don't share them, or who hold contrary opinions -

Nope, not how I feel at all. I appreciate a wide range of information from different people (including the data you kindly supplied) and I do my own research from there. If you want to critique that or possibly insinuate I'm being contrary you can, but that doesn't make such a statement accurate. I respect that you hold doubts of your own about this entire topic.

Lye etches glass and therefore you feel,and have been told by people you respect, that it is a highly dangerous practice to use glass in soaping, and want to express that to people who either don't know or don't care about that information, with the intention of influencing their practices. Is that right? If so, I think I stand by my first response, in that you simply don't have that degree of control of anyone else, and once you've explained your position you may have to accept their ignorance/opinion as unchangeable. It's tough to accept, and I know it (see all the stuff I posted? ) but I"m trying to learn that omnipotence does not seem to be in the cards for my life path, after all.

No. I think perhaps we both got off on the wrong foot with a great deal of misunderstanding. I know I can't influence those people, I suppose what I am attempting to ask is how best to (if such a thing is even possible, depending on who you talk to) prevent or do damage control on those same people passing along dangerous information to newbies. I also really just wanted to know more about glass use with lye in the laboratory capacity, particularly when/if chem glass is disposed of once it reached an "unsafe" point. It sounds like it's hardy enough that most of the time this does not happen (barring flawed glass)?

Not me! Omnipotence is certainly foretold in my own deck (*sarcasm*). I don't think I hold the world on a string. I simply wish to better help people in often difficult scenarios (that can be tricky), and to arm myself with more knowledge along the way.

 

[thinkativeone]

I found a stainless steel 64 oz bain marie at a local restaurant supply store. I bought one, then went back and got another. Just the perfect size and shape for mixing lye and water in, and then mixing lye water and oils in. No worries about plastic flecks or glass shatters. They were only $11 each for the size I bought. And since I should never have to get more(ever), it is not that high a price.

And as for how you deal with those people, you should just walk away. If you have informed them of what the safe containers should be made of, any problems they have are their problems.

I also think that posts in this thread are getting a bit heated. Please, take some deep breaths, folks!

That's a fantastic deal! I need to check out the local restaurant supply store near me but other things keep coming up.

As the thread progressed, I think it's come out now that it's not so much the people that are "always right" (as frustrating as they can be) it's the people that can perpetuate harmful information to others new to soapmaking. I'll go back to the beginning and see if I need to edit something I missed!

If I sounded heated, I didn't mean to. I simply meant to address CanaDawn's concerns one by one and (I hope) put them to rest. I'm not angry or anything like that, but as I mentioned above, I was initially disconcerted (application here: bewildered, confused). This because the way I hear my own tone as I type and the way my written musings were taken are polar opposites to me. That's all. No ill-will from me, just tiredness. Enjoy your new stainless-steel acquisitions!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I agree - let's all take a moment to look out of a window and relax.

Better.

Now, I can understand where Thinky is coming from - when people say "using glass is totally fine for mixing lye" that isn't actually true: Mixing lye in certain types of glass is unlikely to cause issues, but in a lot of glass types, including some new Pyrex, it can and has cause terrible issues.

That is enough for me to not use glass myself and to suggest others also don't use glass. Sure, if you know that you have lab grade stuff then you know you are okay, but then to suggest generally that it is okay is not taking in to account the types of glass out there and that many people won't know that they would be safer with one type than another.

If I was to say that driving at 150 miles an hour is safe, many people would take exception. But then look at racing drivers who would say "but my car is specially made and I know what I am doing. I often drive my racing car at 185 miles an hour, so I will say that 150 miles an hour is fine" is not taking in to account that a normal car in normal conditions with a normal driver is not to compare with an F1 car and driver. What is safe for one is not safe for another.

Now, as it is often not easy to explain that and given that heavy duty plastic or stainless alternatives are out there, I don't see the need to suggest using glass in any way. Those in the know will ask about lab-grade, then it opens another discussion.

In answer to the OPs question - I would say that in some instances it is safe enough, but unless you are 100% sure that you have the right glass type and know how to check for issues with the container, the risk of failure is real. Heck, we can use an old Pot Noodle pot for crying out loud, so why are people using lovely Pyrex (the good version, not the melting exploding new stuff) for lye?

Turn it round - ask not "why shouldn't I use glass?" but ask "why should I use glass?". When you put it that way, there aren't many good reasons to use glass over anything else, taking in to account the possible risks.