Customer Return Request - WWYD

[earlene]

Do American laws allow amd to charge reasonable handling charges on the return (if it happens) before issuing a refund?

Different states have different laws, but several class action law suits have resulted in large monetary judgments against some very large companies who charged unjustifiably high 'shipping and handling' or 'shipping and processing' fees. The DMA (Direct Marketing Association) has guidelines (for US sellers) on how to set shipping and processing fees that can help them stay out of trouble and avoid law suits over unfair practices.

Oh, I just re-read your question and it was about the return, not the original sale. Again, states have different laws and all seems to boil down to the posted policies. (one reference: https://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/return-policies-and-refunds.html) (another reference: https://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/customer-returns-and-refund-laws-by-state.html)

But what I find most interesting can be found in this article: https://www.commercehub.com/e-commerce-returns-refunds-best-practice-guide/
Apparently, easy return policies lead to increased business. Note that although Zappos most valuable customers have a 50% return rate, once they changed their return policies to make it easier for a customer to do returns, their sales shot up 457%. So the bottom line for Zappos (shoe sales, my husband really like Zappos shoes, btw) is that their return policy has more than paid for itself in increased sales.

But, more to the point I think, rather than does US law allow... one could ask the opposite, does US law DIS-allow... No, US law does not dis-allow charging reasonable handling. Restocking fees are a fairly common practice, which irritates me, but as long as it's clearly posted in the return policy in whatever state where I purchase, it is legal. If I agree to the policy, I don't have a leg to stand on in court to sue for unfair restocking fees (per many lawsuit judgements in the past.)

Did you know that any seller in the US or AUS that sells into the UK is obligated to comply with UK laws? If you have a business and sell through Etsy or a website your products should be EU compliant if you offer sales there. And vice versa - its one of the reasons we dont sell to US and why its so hard to insurance to cover goods sold over there

Yes, that is true, and rightly so, may I add. And it's one of the reasons why some companies complain about EU regulations. But it's part of doing business globally. If a company doesn't like the regulations/laws within the global market, then they should determine if they really want to sell globally.

 

[OldHippie]

In my 20's I bought a 35mm movie camera that didn't work straight out of the box, so I exchanged it for a new one, same model.

When you were in your 20's, a 35mm movie camera weighed more than you did. No doubt you had an 8mm movie camera.

 

[earlene]

When you were in your 20's, a 35mm movie camera weighed more than you did. No doubt you had an 8mm movie camera.

You are right that it wasn't a 35mm movie camera; it was either an 8mm or 16mm movie camera. I do wish I could remember (I recall what it looked like, but not the brand or even the name of the store where I bought it, although I do remember where the store was located.) But, no it wasn't a 35mm movie camera.

I did have a 35mm regular camera, though. My dad gave each and everyone of us kids a 35mm camera when we reached a certain age (about 10 or 12 depending on how 'mature' each of us was at the time, I guess) and taught us photography.

 

[SaltedFig]

Hmm, thats not my interpretation of the laws nor other peoples! Distance selling is different to online selling which has greater restrictions and more protections for the consumer and as far as I am concerned both as a customer and a seller the £42 doesnt come into it.

I am aware of the 14 day refund process regarding extras and also not refunding personalised items - Ive been doing this for years and my website complies with UK laws despite most other soapers and candle makers not even bothering with addresses, contact details let alone CLP labels for candles and safety assessments for soaps.

The law is trying to deliver the same level of protection to online customers as they would have if they bought in person as at a B&M store they would have the opportunity to see, smell etc any product. There isnt a legal responsibility for either to accept returns as a change of mind but its considered good customer service.

Did you know that any seller in the US or AUS that sells into the UK is obligated to comply with UK laws? If you have a business and sell through Etsy or a website your products should be EU compliant if you offer sales there. And vice versa - its one of the reasons we dont sell to US and why its so hard to insurance to cover goods sold over there

Thanks LilyJo .

I saw that international sellers, selling into the UK, need to comply with the local laws. It makes sense for it to be like this, but it sure makes things complex!

I'm still seeing a 14 day cancellation (no reason required) in the government (and other) help pages, but from what you are saying it's not commonly used?

It is hard being compliant (and hats off to you for doing so!). Have you heard of non-compliant sellers being penalised under the new regulations?

And this is what I've found so far, on distance and online selling in the UK:
From what I could tell, the online selling rules are in addition to the distance selling rules (so my understanding is both apply?).
I did check the online selling page from the UK government, and it had the 14 rule under "Right to cancel", exceptions to this rule under "Exceptions" (which is where I found the 42 pound rule) and the link to the page Accepting returns and giving refunds: the law, where the 14 day cancellation rule is found under the heading "Online, mail and phone order sales".

I found this other guide to returns and online sales which also mentioned that only the standard postage needs to be refunded (not the extras) in the instance of a return, a regulation information page, and this news article talked about the standard delivery charge and how some people aren't being given it when it's due (when they've purchased online then changed their mind and returned the goods).

@earlene
Wow - state by state, that's a lot of law to look at! Thanks for the insight into how your laws work Earlene. Much appreciated.

So, if I've got this right, amd is unlikely to be able to charge a handling fee for the return of the unwanted goods in this instance.

 

[earlene]

@earlene
Wow - state by state, that's a lot of law to look at! Thanks for the insight into how your laws work Earlene. Much appreciated.

So, if I've got this right, amd is unlikely to be able to charge a handling fee for the return of the unwanted goods in this instance.

Right, the posted return policy (at the time of purchase) has to state there is a handling fee for returns, otherwise it is not allowed. So, no in this case there was nothing in the return policy stating a handling fee would be charged for the return, so no, she can't. Additionally, of course, there are the contractual agreements an Etsy seller makes when selling, but as far as I can see Etsy doesn't say anything other than 'familiarize yourself with the laws in your country and the buyer's country' in reference to returns and nothing at all about 'handling' fees.

All this is quite interesting. I mean looking at the laws for global sales. It brings to mind a question, not really related to amd's actual situation, but something related that holds potential here at SMF.

Which laws apply for the buyer of online materials who has it shipped to another country or even another state from where they live, then is later delivered or picked up by them to be taken to their home country or state? Is it the laws of their land or the laws of the land of delivery? And how do they manage disputes regarding returns should they arise?

If I as a seller have to become familiar with the laws of the country where the buyer lives, but they give me an address in (for example only) Minnesota, and I drive from my home in (remember, example only) Canada to pick up their online order from their friend (or drop box - PO Box, or whatever) then take it home, which consumer protection laws apply? Or do any apply at this point?

I wonder, not because I do this myself, but some here have talked about it and I wonder how it effects a need for a return. I mean, honestly, sometimes returns are necessary. Now, for me, I have no trouble returning Amazon orders from where ever I want, because I only ever have them shipped within the US and it's all based on the posted return policy. But how does it affect others who actually do cross country borders to pick up their orders?

 

[Saponificarian]

I do cross country orders as do most people here in my country. Chances of returning items are really really slim. The merchant shipped to a UK/US address because that is where they are, once it crosses the border, I don’t think it’s their problem anymore except you are willing to ship back to the country of origin and do a return from there... this is really really unlikely as Shipping to Nigeria is not cheap, so by the time you add up the cost of shipment to you, the cost of shipping item back to country of origin and then shipping to the merchant, most people just don’t bother. Unless you have a great supplier like Brambleberry who would take your word for it that they sent you a wrong FO, which they have done before and they sent me a replacement, which is why they are still my major supplier for FO. I don’t think any other company would do that. It has only happened once but because they made it right without any hassle, they earned my loyalty and trust.

 

[amd]

I'm not sure @earlene but I think in the CD/US example, because the product was shipped to a US address, any Canadian laws would not apply. The only responsibility we can have as sellers is where we ship to - so if we ship to US and the buyer takes it to Canada, we can only be knowledgeable of where it shipped. A real example of this is a soap I purchased from a German seller. She was not licensed to sell outside of Germany. We were able to work around that by having her ship my soap to my company's Garching office, where one of my engineers brought it back when he came on a business trip. He declared it through customs as a gift - although, really, it was two bars of soap so he probably could have just said it was his for personal use, but I think he was glad he declared it. Apparently it's becoming common for drugs to be smuggled inside soap bars, so the xray tech stopped it in Chicago and the soap package had to be opened up and examined. My coworker was extremely relieved when it was declared "just soap" and I wasn't smuggling drugs into the country.... this time

 

[Lin19687]

@DeeAnna I did, however, add them to my short list of fired clients.

Because I have a ton of things on my mind... I don't' understand this. Is this Online? How do you 'not' sell to someone ? Or do you mean for returns ?

 

[amd]

@Lin19687 I believe that DeeAnna does wholesale - in which case, she can pick an choose who she wants to work with. She also does things other than soap - I believe it is leather horsery items (not to be confused with leather hosiery... and I'm pretty sure there's a more correct term for the items she sells).

 

[SaltedFig]

Some companies in the US charge a "restocking fee" that they use to discourage/penalize the customer for making a return. It's not commonly done, but if it's stated clearly up front, it's legal.

Thanks DeeAnna.

"Restocking fee" is a term used here, but it seems associated mostly with drop shippers (and the occasional high volume/low value seller). It's an unpopular charge (and viewed even more negatively than handling fees from what I can tell).

@DeeAnna

It sounds almost like deliberate damage, treating leather like that
(the tack shops around here treat the leather like it's made of gold! I couldn't imagine one of them even dreaming about putting a sticker on a piece!)

Do you use wholesale contracts?

 

[penelopejane]

We have restocking fees. I bought a heated towel rail and when I read the installation instructions I wanted to return it. The bathroom/tile place wanted 20% plus a handling fee as a restocking charge. It was expensive so 25% (that was the total) was a lot of money. I kept it and never shopped at that shop again. I told them I wouldn’t. I had a whole house - 2 bathrooms and a kitchen to buy stuff for. They missed out. I was, and still am, furious. There was no indication of this charge at time of purchase.

The bad feelings this engenders in a customer is not worth the goodwill for being a little bit flexible.

I’ve bought stuff for on the US and they accept returns but you pay postage-so it’s never worth it.

Buying stuff from China and they say - keep what you have and we’ll replace it! No postage.

 

[DeeAnna]

...Because I have a ton of things on my mind... I don't' understand this. Is this Online? How do you 'not' sell to someone ? Or do you mean for returns ?

How do I not sell to someone? It's pretty simple -- I just don't sell to them. No one says you have to serve everyone all of the time. A business person had better have good reasons for refusing service, but it's a legitimate thing to do if the reasons are good.

In my business, if a customer has a complaint or problem with their order, I always try to resolve that issue to the best of my ability. If it means accepting someone's return for an exchange or refund, I do so even if I think it's not strictly necessary. If it means adjusting the price of an order to settle a dispute, I do so. And then if I think it's justified, I put them on a list of "fired clients."

If a fired client tries to order again, whether it's face-to-face, online, or whatever, I politely but firmly decline to serve them. I will clearly explain that I am refusing to serve them, but that's all I will say.

I've done this maybe twice in 15 years, so it doesn't happen often. But I will do it again if need be. There's that old saying -- "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

 

[penelopejane]

I do agree with DeeAnna.
I used to have a wholesale plant nursery and we dropped customers that were just too difficult to deal with. Life is too short to bash your head against a brick wall. It was easier for us as we didn't stop by anymore to show them our plant selection (this was before the internet) and when they rang and asked we just said we weren't servicing that area anymore.

My son just tells customers he no longer wishes to deal with that he thinks they "will be happier with another accountant". You have to be tough to be in business. Polite, conciliatory, humourous, generous and kind but still tough.

 

[Misschief]

We've 'divorced' customers as well. There are times you just can't make someone happy no matter what you do. We let them know, as nicely as we can, that they might be happier with another printer. In most cases, they come back in a year or two, realizing that maybe we're not so bad (or expensive), after all.

 

[DeeAnna]

...Restocking fee" ... an unpopular charge (and viewed even more negatively than handling fees from what I can tell).

Restocking fees are not used a lot from my experience, and you're right -- it is an unpopular policy.

"...It sounds almost like deliberate damage, treating leather like that..."

I'm afraid it was most likely stupidity.

"...Do you use wholesale contracts?..."

It depends. Larger corporate clients, yes, we generally do have a contract specific to that client because they require it. Not that the contract really means much if the customer decides to cancel an order or declare bankruptcy, both of which have happened to me.

For medium to small wholesale clients, we have a written policy that outlines our terms of service for wholesale. For these clients, we basically work from that policy and their purchase orders.

 

[amd]

Heard back from the customer today. She has decided to keep the soaps and gift them to friends who are able to use animal products. My bet is she got to the post office and decided that paying $4 in shipping to get $10 back wasn't worth it. Either way, I appreciate that she let me know that she'll be keeping the soaps.

 

[I_like_melts]

I would refund. Keep in mind that Etsy doesn't display all details by default, so they may not have expanded the listing to see everything.

 

[SaltedFig]

@amd - she still sounds really nice.

Can you turn her around and offer her a voucher for a free castile soap?
(Obviously at this point, you have no obligation to, but it would be a way of letting her know you DO have vegan soaps, AND you might get two customers out of a gesture like that - your Etsy gal AND her friend )

PS. @DeeAnna, thanks for that. Nothing can be done for the stupidity, unfortunately
Sorry to hear you've had to go through the bankruptcy process - aside from the inevitable loss it causes your business, it's never nice having to see someone fail (I've only ever seen one deliberate bankruptcy, most are just sad).