Thanks, @justsomeguy. I’ve read through that thread. It was one of the threads that made me interested in soy wax. All I can say is it behaves differently than stearic acid for me. From my limited experience soy wax doesn’t seem to trace as quickly as stearic acid. It also seems to stay milky in transparent soap. It does appear to add hardness, and in high quantities the lather seems similar to stearic acid. But other than that I haven’t noticed other beneficial qualities. My sense is it would work best for palm free and vegetarian/vegan soapers.
Cream Soap Questions
- Thread starter Benjamin
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That makes sense to me, because PS80 is going to act as a solubilizer and emulsifier.
@AliOop, I take it all back. This morning it looks more like there is a foam on the surface. I’m wondering if I dissolved the paste in water without mixing what would happen. I’m going to try that and report back.
Just to be clear, GW 415 is not especially high in stearic. The fatty acid profile for GW 415 looks a lot like tallow or lard, which means it is not a good substitute for stearic acid. The fully hydrogenated soy wax sold by MMS (linked by @justsomeguy , not what you’ve been using), is the one that appears to be the same/close to the fully hydrogenated soy wax given in the calculators.
Now back to the regular program
@Mobjack Bay, I’ll have to go back and re-read the thread. I thought the consensus was 415 is mostly hydrogenated, and mostly stearic. Back to the drawing board!
Refer to this thread/post for my best estimate of the fatty acid profile for GW 415:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/gw-415-soy-wax.78212/post-851749
Thanks, @Mobjack Bay! I remember reading through this and just re-read it. It sent me down an elaidic acid rabbit hole. The chemistry on this is way above my head, so you’ll have to correct me. Your post equated elaidic acid with oleic acid. From what I read, it seemed like elaidic was also similar to stearic acid. It seems elaidic is like a step between the two. Oleic is unsaturated, elaidic is a trans fat, and stearic is a saturated fatty acid. Does this make sense?
Elaidic acid is monounsaturated (18:1) like oleic acid (18:1), but is a straight chain, which makes it a bit like stearic acid (18:0). Unfortunately, I don’t have the chemistry background to speculate on the relative importance of the straight chain vs. the unsaturated bond when it comes how it behaves in soap. It does seem like it could/should behave like an intermediary, which is good for increasing the longevity of bar soap, but possibly not good enough for shave soaps.
It does seem to make a very dense, long lasting foam. As a paste or cream, with a shaving brush, it would make a fantastic shave soap. Unfortunately, that isn’t what I’m hoping to make.
I’m starting to rethink my strategy on this. Rather than trying to make a cream soap more liquidy, I’m wondering about making a liquid soap more creamy. It seems like separation is the major issue. I’m wondering if high-stearic liquid soap without a super cream, and an emulsifier and thickener like guar might work. @AliOop, @DeeAnna, and @Mobjack Bay, have you played with emulsifiers in soap?
I’m starting to rethink my strategy on this. Rather than trying to make a cream soap more liquidy, I’m wondering about making a liquid soap more creamy. It seems like separation is the major issue. I’m wondering if high-stearic liquid soap without a super cream, and an emulsifier and thickener like guar might work. @AliOop, @DeeAnna, and @Mobjack Bay, have you played with emulsifiers in soap?
Update: all attempts to dilute have separated. I’m switching tracks and playing with thickeners. So far I have successfully made snot using guar gum. On the plus side, it is very slippery snot. I’ll keep experimenting and report back.
I've only used PS80, which (to my understanding) is more of a solubilizer, and is only at best a weak emulsifier.
But to achieve your end goal of a creamy, pump-able shaving lotion, maybe you don't need an emulsifier. I think you were on the right track with using the bare minimum of dilution water. If it is still too thin once dilution has been achieved, you can reheat it and blend in some melted stearic acid (a la Irish Lass' Creamy-Cocoa Shea recipe). You could also use some PS80 to add any superfat or fragrance that you wish.
@AliOop, I’m definitely leaning towards the Irish Lass route. I started playing with thickeners this weekend. I have a three part problem that might not be solvable without syndets (I’m not really interested in them). I want it to be liquid enough for a pump bottle, I want it to produce a dense copious lather for shaving, and I want it to be gentle/non-drying. I make a gentle hand soap, but the lather wouldn’t be great for shaving. I can use lots of stearic acid, but from the test batches of cream soap I made, it seems a bit drying. I made an in-between batch and thickened it with guar this weekend. It wasn’t perfect, but gave me a few more ideas to explore.
