Cream Soap Questions

[Benjamin]

Hello all, warning, long obscure post ahead. I’ve gone way down the rabbit hole.

I’m hoping to make a lotion consistency shaving cream that I can put in a pump bottle and keep in the shower. I’ve seen threads about this, but no recipes or posts about folks attempts/experiences. I’ve read everything I can find on the web, all 68 pages of the shaving soap thread, and all of Lindy’s cream soap tutorial.

Please help me check my understanding. It appears that cream soap is primarily:

1. A KOH based hot processed liquid soap paste made with a high proportion of stearic acid.
2. Has additional glycerine and stearic acid added after the cook.
3. The paste is mixed/whipped and diluted with water post cook.

Is this correct?

I know folks say it is mixed and not whipped, but from a cooking perspective, every picture I’ve seen looks like a foam.

Second, assuming my understanding of the process is correct:

1. What is the dilution rate of the paste (eg. I use 50/50 or 60/40 water/soap for my liquid soap)?
2. It appears cream soap can be diluted with less water than standard liquid soap, increasing the viscosity. Any idea why this is possible? Is the stearic helping form an emulsion?

Finally, here’s a recipe I’m thinking of trying:

Oils
6% castor oil
14% palm kernel oil
40% lard
40% soy wax or stearic acid

KOH: 5% superfat, 25% solution

Additives PPO (added to cook):
3% sucrose
3% sodium lactate
3% cetyl alcohol
1% sodium citrate

Post cook additives PPO:
15% glycerine
2% stearic acid

Dilution rate: TBD

Any feedback would be much appreciated.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I can't help, but @Ford @DeeAnna or @AliOop may be able to answer some or all of your questions.

 

[Benjamin]

Thanks @Mobjack Bay, I was hoping they might chime in.

 

[AliOop]

I wish I could be of some help, but I actually haven't made it yet!

 

[Benjamin]

“Yet” I’m sure, @AliOop. Right?

 

[AliOop]

100% correct It's definitely on my "going to try this someday" list. But now I have even more reason to procrastinate, so I can shamelessly plagiarize gratefully follow all the tips and advice you will no doubt be generously sharing during your experiment.

 

[DeeAnna]

...It appears that cream soap is primarily:

1. A KOH based hot processed liquid soap paste made with a high proportion of stearic acid.
2. Has additional glycerine and stearic acid added after the cook.
3. The paste is mixed/whipped and diluted with water post cook.

Yes that's more or less correct. Alternatively you can argue liquid soap is a cream soap made with a low % of stearic and palmitic acid. In either case, it's soap made with KOH. I'd suggest if you want to talk to experienced cream soap makers about cream soap making, you'll get a warmer reception if you don't call it liquid soap.

Yes, that's usually true, although some cream soap recipes don't have either added after the cook.

Neither mixing or dilution is required depending on your goal. You can mix it, you can add additional water-soluble liquids and fats, or you can use the base soap as is. Yes, people do whip cream soap paste to incorporate air, but IMO it doesn't retain a soft whipped-cream texture. It tends to firm up again although it may still be aerated.

1. What is the dilution rate of the paste (eg. I use 50/50 or 60/40 water/soap for my liquid soap)?
2. It appears cream soap can be diluted with less water than standard liquid soap, increasing the viscosity. Any idea why this is possible? Is the stearic helping form an emulsion?

IMO you have to treat every batch as its own thing. There's no way to predict the dilution rate. The amount of dilution will depend on the fatty acids in the soap, your goal for adding dilution liquids, water evaporation that occurred while making the paste, the age of the paste (the reason why cream soap is "rotted"), etc., etc.

Stearic acid is not an emulsifier. It's a thickener -- it increases the viscosity. Stearic acid is sometimes called a "co-emulsifier" in that it adds stability to an emulsion, but stearic acid can't emulsify if used alone. It has to be partnered with a real emulsifier. The soap itself can function as a modest emulsifier -- after all, soap cleans by emulsifying water and fat.

I doubt you'll be able to convince a cream-soap style of shave soap to stay reliably pumpable over time. It might work okay for a time, but cream soap tends to firm up as time goes on.

 

[Benjamin]

100% correct It's definitely on my "going to try this someday" list. But now I have even more reason to procrastinate, so I can shamelessly plagiarize gratefully follow all the tips and advice you will no doubt be generously sharing during your experiment.

Get ready! First test coming.

 

[AliOop]

I doubt you'll be able to convince a cream-soap style of shave soap to stay reliably pumpable over time. It might work okay for a time, but cream soap tends to firm up as time goes on.

Is that due to the stearic acid?

 

[DeeAnna]

Is that due to the stearic acid?

Yep!

You'll also see this tendency in (normal) liquid soap if the oleic acid content is high -- something over about 60%. The diluted soap will be nicely pourable and pumpable at first, but then turns into a jiggly "jello" solid as time goes on.

A similar thing often happens when people grate up bar (NaOH) soap and dilute the soap with water to make a "liquid soap". The diluted soap mixture turns into a snotty gel.

 

[Benjamin]

Thank you, @DeeAnna, and arg! Reliably pump-able is the goal. That is part of why I used 100% KOH instead of part NaOH. What do you think of trying other water alternatives like more glycerine, or propylene glycol. I could also try an emulsifier like Polysorbate 80. Maybe I will have to research squeeze tubes.

I’ll post results of my first experiment below.

 

[Benjamin]

So interesting. My favorite liquid hand soap recipe has about 58% oleic acid. I haven’t noticed that yet at a 50:50 or 40:60 soap:water dilution.

 

[AliOop]

So interesting. My favorite liquid hand soap recipe has about 58% oleic acid. I haven’t noticed that yet at a 50:50 or 40:60 soap:water dilution.

So that fits what DeeAnna shared, that going over 60% will cause it to "jellify," for lack of a better word. You edged right up to the line there.

 

[Benjamin]

Ok @AliOop, @Mobjack Bay, and @DeeAnna, here’s the first test:

It is cooling on the stove. Hot paste is smooth, slippery, and spreadable. It is very slick and creamy on the hands, almost like lotion, but works up into a dense stable lather. This is the first KOH soap paste (I’m not writing liquid soap DeeAnna) I’ve made that didn’t turn transparent. I made a similar version using stearic acid ISO soy wax and it did turn clear post-cook. I’m using GS 415 and I’m not convinced it is really such a high percentage stearic acid. It still seems to make a nice shave soap. I have about 200g of paste. Dilution trials will begin shortly. Let me know your thoughts!

View attachment IMG_1490.jpeg

 

[Benjamin]

So that fits what DeeAnna shared, that going over 60% will cause it to "jellify," for lack of a better word. You edged right up to the line there.

Daring!

 

[AliOop]

That paste and lather look very nice! I’ve always added the stearic into the main shave soap recipe to saponify and create a stable lather. I’ve only added it post-cook to LS for thickening. I’m very interested to se how this goes for you!

 

[Benjamin]

Here is a 1:1 dilution totaling 100g that includes .5% liquid germal.

To a separate 100g batch I added a mix of 1g bergamot EO, 2g avocado oil, and 3g polysorbate 80.

Both are sequestering.

 

[Benjamin]

That paste and lather look very nice! I’ve always added the stearic into the main shave soap recipe to saponify and create a stable lather. I’ve only added it post-cook to LS for thickening. I’m very interested to se how this goes for you!

AliOop, I’ve read the soy wax is “supposed” to be about 80% stearic acid. I hoped that the soy wax and lard would boost the stearic high enough in the main cook. From other threads it sounded like others had swapped soy wax for stearic with good success. The post cook stearic was for thickening. I figured I’d give the soy wax a shot because I’m low on stearic and need to order more. I write “supposed” because soy wax behaves very differently from stearic in the recipes I’ve tried. I purchased it to try in transparent soap. It didn’t work at all.

 

[Benjamin]

Update: the 1:1 dilution is separating. But riddle me this, the one with polysorbate and avocado oil seems to be holding better. Still some separation, but much less.

 

[justsomeguy]

AliOop, I’ve read the soy wax is “supposed” to be about 80% stearic acid. I hoped that the soy wax and lard would boost the stearic high enough in the main cook. From other threads it sounded like others had swapped soy wax for stearic with good success. The post cook stearic was for thickening. I figured I’d give the soy wax a shot because I’m low on stearic and need to order more. I write “supposed” because soy wax behaves very differently from stearic in the recipes I’ve tried. I purchased it to try in transparent soap. It didn’t work at all.

Not @AliOop, but this soy wax is very high in stearic acid. And a lot closer to the fat profile in soapcalc lye c@lculator. This is from @Mobjack Bay here.