Can Sodiium Citrate be used in making liquid soap?

[dingi]

There is no reason not to use citric acid or sodium citrate and sugar in the same batch.

Yes, you add the sugar and water to the oils. If you add it to the lye/water, it gets really hot and can caramelize the sugar, leading to brown soap. All of the oils and lye/water and sugar/water are going to get mixed together, anyway, you just minimize your chances of caramelizing the sugar by adding it to the oils.

Thanks Susie. That's fine explanation and you have certainly cleared up the ambiguity, Thanks once again

 

[cmzaha]

I do like Susie, and also add my dissolved citric acid to my oils. I make up a gallon or so of 50/50 citric acid solution. For LS I just add in the extra KOH needed to make it sodium citrate. Multiply your dry required weight of citric acid by 0.824 for the amount of extra KOH. FYI, if you use the full glycerin method do not try to dissolve your CA in glycerin, it simply, will not properly dissolve. Use water

 

[dingi]

extra liquiid to compensate for sodium citrate?

Can someone please tell me if all the calculations are correct?
Few days beforeI got the KOH. Later I confirmed its purity from the supplier. They say it is 87 % or 88 % purtiy. So, as per the recipe posted by Irishlass that has 65% OO, 25% CO and 10% Castor oil, I entered that in SoapCalc for 500 grams oils with Lye concentration as 25 % without ticking 90% checkbox and I got the KOH weight as 99.79 grams at 3% superfat. So I did the math as mentioned in this forum and hence 99.79 / 88 x 100 = 113.39 grams (for 88% purity) is the needed KOH finally.
Water or Glycerin needed must be 113.79 x 3 = 340 grams.
Now I have to take into the issue of hard water and hence I have decided to add citric acid 5 grams to the 1 part water before adding lye and then to add 2 part glycerin.
To compensate for this reaction, I have to add 4.21 grams of additional KOH ( because DeeAnna has mentioned that 10 grams of citric acid will neutralize 8.42 grams of KOH). Here I got stuck up regarding the total liquid needed. Do we need to add additional water or glycerin ?
as 4.21 x 3 = 12.63 grams because the total KOH now has become 117.6 grams (113.39 + 4.21 grams) ?
In other words, do we need 117.6 x 3 = 352.8 grams of liquid instead of earlier 340grams ? :smile:

 

[topofmurrayhill]

as 4.21 x 3 = 12.63 grams because the total KOH now has become 117.6 grams (113.39 + 4.21 grams) ?
In other words, do we need 117.6 x 3 = 352.8 grams of liquid instead of earlier 340grams ? :smile:

If you want to keep your lye at the intended concentration, then yes. Will it make a difference? Probably not.

 

[dingi]

Thanks so much topofmurrayhill for your explanation.
I am awaiting to know opinions and experiences from DeeAnna, Susie and IrishLass' experience on the same and also regarding the calculation at 88 % purity... As I am new, I am studying extensively in this forum on the LS topics and threads and wanna be clear before start making LS practically.

 

[Susie]

I don't have hard water, and I am horrible in math. You need to wait for someone who can talk to you about both. But you do need to stick to the 1:3 KOH/water (or glycerin) ratio for easier to work paste, as TOMH said.

 

[dingi]

Thanks Susie.

 

[DeeAnna]

Dingi -- I agree with your numbers -- they look correct to me.

"...113.39 grams (for 88% purity) is the needed KOH...
"...citric acid 5 grams...
"...4.21 grams of additional KOH..."

You also asked: "...Here I got stuck up regarding the total liquid needed. Do we need to add additional water or glycerin ?..."

My preference -- Yes, I add liquid equal to 3 X (total KOH weight). But if you do not add the extra water-glycerin, your soap will also be fine. The total weight of the water phase (the weight of water + glycerin) is flexible. Some soapers use less water phase; others use more.

In my experience, the water phase can range from (2 X total KOH) to (3 X total KOH) or even a little bit more. Anything in that range will work. Less water phase (2 X) will make the soap paste extra firm and harder to stir, so I usually go with (3 X) to get a softer soap paste.

If you use an even larger water phase of (4 X total KOH) or more, you may find the soap will keep separating and not come to trace. That much water phase is too much.

My only caution regardless of what you do --

The water in which you dissolve the KOH should always be equal to or greater than the total KOH weight, regardless of what your total water phase weight is. If you do not do this, you might run into trouble with getting all of the KOH to dissolve easily.

 

[dingi]

Thanks DeeAnna for precise answer!!! Glad that my calculations are correct. That's nice to learn, exactly what I needed about KOH and water/glycerin ratio when extra lye is added to compensate when citrate is formed.