Can cold-process soap have base?

[JJulia]

Hi,
I don't know where exactly should I be posting this. It a query which is related to both cold-process and MP.
One of the popular brand here claims to make cold processed soap of 2 variants. One is of it basic and another is of luxury. The ingredients have 2 categories like "Ingredients" and "Base". In Ingredients Category they have given the key ingredients that defines the soap whereas in Base category they have given ingredients that is the same across all the soap in a particular variant. The ingredients in the base is of concern to me and the list goes like " Aqua, Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Palmate, Glycerine, Sugar, Vitamin E. QS. I could have taken it for any cold processed recipe but the look of the soap is like MP soap.
So my queries are:
1)Can we have a base for cold processed and is it possible to make like glycerin soap(appearance). If I'm right I think lush has their own base.
2) It is possible to make MP without alcohol or propylene glycol like the above composition.
3) What is the purpose of adding alcohol in glycerin soap?
4) What is the work of propylene glycol in glycerine soap?
5) Is there a 100% natural MP base recipe?

Thanks in advance
JJulia

 

[DeeAnna]

You can make any soap into a more transparent soap by adding one or more solvents, such as sugar, glycerin, propylene glycol, other glycols, alcohols, etc.

Alcohol or propylene glycol are not required for making transparent soap.

Alcohol is one of many solvents that can be used to make a transparent soap. It does not work to make a melt and pour type of transparent soap, however, because the alcohol will evaporate out of the soap if the soap is melted again.

Like alcohol, propylene glycol is one of many solvents that can be used to make a transparent soap. It helps transparent soap also be a melt and pour type, because this glycol does not evaporate when the soap is melted. It also helps the soap be less weepy and sticky, which are disadvantages created when only glycerin and/or sugar are used as the solvent(s).

I have no idea -- define what you mean by "natural" and then maybe people can answer that. "Natural" in the context of soap has no specific agreed-upon meaning.

 

[JJulia]

Thanks DeeAnna for the quick reply.
After reading a couple of times, I think I can understand your reply. I am not looking for a transparent soap. I want to know if there could be a base soap using cold-processed method. Like I make say a "MP kind of soap", using cold-processed method, all natural(I will explain that soon), So that when I need I can just grab a block of soap, melt it and add additive and use it immediately.
When I say natural, its anything that isn't synthetic, lab-made. The term "natural" may not have a specific meaning for soapmaker but we cant expects the same with people on the other side. The word "Natural" still has its own weight to it. Just because we soapmaker have a different point of view, doesnt me the whole world got to agree. A colorant using a synthetic color is different from the color we obtain using clay, parts of plants etc.

Thanks Again

 

[ResolvableOwl]

I seriously doubt you'll find NaOH that “isn't synthetic, lab-made”.

 

[ScentimentallyYours]

Thanks DeeAnna for the quick reply.
After reading a couple of times, I think I can understand your reply. I am not looking for a transparent soap. I want to know if there could be a base soap using cold-processed method. Like I make say a "MP kind of soap", using cold-processed method, all natural(I will explain that soon), So that when I need I can just grab a block of soap, melt it and add additive and use it immediately.
When I say natural, its anything that isn't synthetic, lab-made. The term "natural" may not have a specific meaning for soapmaker but we cant expects the same with people on the other side. The word "Natural" still has its own weight to it. Just because we soapmaker have a different point of view, doesnt me the whole world got to agree. A colorant using a synthetic color is different from the color we obtain using clay, parts of plants etc.

Thanks Again

Your description of using a bar of cold process soap, melting it, and adding other ingredients sounds like re-batching to me. Basically, you would make up your favorite CP soap and then grate it into soap noodles. Or or you could order soap noodles from an online supplier and add your luxury ingredients during the rebatch. The soap would be safe to use right away, but it would be soft and dissolve easily, so it would be better to let it cure so the water evaporates out of the soap to form a hard bar. Hope this helps!

 

[TheGecko]

After reading a couple of times, I think I can understand your reply. I am not looking for a transparent soap. I want to know if there could be a base soap using cold-processed method. Like I make say a "MP kind of soap", using cold-processed method, all natural(I will explain that soon), So that when I need I can just grab a block of soap, melt it and add additive and use it immediately.

You're talking about "Rebatching". It's where you take Hot or Cold Processed soap, grate it up, but it in a crock pot/slow cooker or double-boiler, add Distilled Water to 'melt' it down, add scent and colorants and stick it in a mold. As for using it immediately...yes and no. While the soap is perfectly safe to use as soon as it cools down, you still want to let it cure for a week or two as to evaporate the added water.

The Pros to Rebatching is that that the soap has already going through saponification so you don't have to work with lye or wear safety gear. It doesn't take a four to six weeks to cure and clean up is a snap. The Cons is that since the soap has already gone through saponification, you can't customize it beyond adding scent and colorants. The soap is of a thick, rough texture so you can't do swirls or even layers. And you have to be careful with using scents (FOs/EOs) that have a low flashpoint since Rebatching, like Hot Process, requires higher temperatures, so you scent can burn off and/or fade quickly.

When I say natural, its anything that isn't synthetic, lab-made. The term "natural" may not have a specific meaning for soapmaker but we cant expects the same with people on the other side. The word "Natural" still has its own weight to it. Just because we soapmaker have a different point of view, doesnt me the whole world got to agree. A colorant using a synthetic color is different from the color we obtain using clay, parts of plants etc.

Wow...really?!? My soap may not be 'natural' in your eyes because sometimes I use Micas and FOs, but at least I make it from scratch as opposed to using someone's effect and passing it off as my own. Yeah...insulting to be sure, but no less so than what you said above. And I have to point out that "natural" is subjective. Poison Oak/Ivy is 'natural', Deadly Nightshade is 'natural', so Is Water Hemlock, White Snakeroot, Castor Bean, Rosary Bean and Oleander.

It may come as a shock to you, but those 'natural' clays aren't just taken from the Earth, ground up and put in a jar. They have been isolated from the soil and then processed to remove impurities and contaminates. Commercially prepared plant powders are also processed to remove impurities and contaminates.

I started out using EOs, but using them is more work that I want to do because you are stuck with single scents unless you get into blending them.; they are expensive in comparison to FOs and they can be a heck of a lot more dangerous than FOs. And I tried some plant powders...it's NOT WYSIWYG. Colors can fade or morph or be completely different. Take Spinach powder...it's a beautiful green in M&P, but looks like something I cleaned out of my kids' diapers in CP Soap.

 

[JJulia]

I seriously doubt you'll find NaOH that “isn't synthetic, lab-made”.

Don't we say it completely saponified in the process? Its each one's point of view. Many gets upset if we say"chemical-free". They have the argument that even water is a chemical. I agree. But still when people say "chemical-free" it means "harmful chemicals". So let leave it here. I understand that u dont agree with the word natural. U could just ignore it. Likewise, I also have my own theory. Let respect each other's point of view, least we can ignore it.
Again, I thank that you carified some of my queries.

 

[JJulia]

Your description of using a bar of cold process soap, melting it, and adding other ingredients sounds like re-batching to me. Basically, you would make up your favorite CP soap and then grate it into soap noodles. Or or you could order soap noodles from an online supplier and add your luxury ingredients during the rebatch. The soap would be safe to use right away, but it would be soft and dissolve easily, so it would be better to let it cure so the water evaporates out of the soap to form a hard bar. Hope this helps!

Thanks Sentimentally Yours,
Yes, I also had the same thought. I just wanted to confirm it.

 

[JJulia]

You're talking about "Rebatching". It's where you take Hot or Cold Processed soap, grate it up, but it in a crock pot/slow cooker or double-boiler, add Distilled Water to 'melt' it down, add scent and colorants and stick it in a mold. As for using it immediately...yes and no. While the soap is perfectly safe to use as soon as it cools down, you still want to let it cure for a week or two as to evaporate the added water.

The Pros to Rebatching is that that the soap has already going through saponification so you don't have to work with lye or wear safety gear. It doesn't take a four to six weeks to cure and clean up is a snap. The Cons is that since the soap has already gone through saponification, you can't customize it beyond adding scent and colorants. The soap is of a thick, rough texture so you can't do swirls or even layers. And you have to be careful with using scents (FOs/EOs) that have a low flashpoint since Rebatching, like Hot Process, requires higher temperatures, so you scent can burn off and/or fade quickly.



Wow...really?!? My soap may not be 'natural' in your eyes because sometimes I use Micas and FOs, but at least I make it from scratch as opposed to using someone's effect and passing it off as my own. Yeah...insulting to be sure, but no less so than what you said above. And I have to point out that "natural" is subjective. Poison Oak/Ivy is 'natural', Deadly Nightshade is 'natural', so Is Water Hemlock, White Snakeroot, Castor Bean, Rosary Bean and Oleander.

It may come as a shock to you, but those 'natural' clays aren't just taken from the Earth, ground up and put in a jar. They have been isolated from the soil and then processed to remove impurities and contaminates. Commercially prepared plant powders are also processed to remove impurities and contaminates.

I started out using EOs, but using them is more work that I want to do because you are stuck with single scents unless you get into blending them.; they are expensive in comparison to FOs and they can be a heck of a lot more dangerous than FOs. And I tried some plant powders...it's NOT WYSIWYG. Colors can fade or morph or be completely different. Take Spinach powder...it's a beautiful green in M&P, but looks like something I cleaned out of my kids' diapers in CP Soap.

Hi Gecko,

Like you I am a person who prefer to do everything from scratch. I started my soap journey with cold-processed and I have hardly tried MP. I gave a thought of rebatching but the soap that I mentioned was clear almost like a translucent soap which I am not familiar with in cold-processed. Then after a lot of browsing, I came across a couple of videos were clear soap is possible in cold-processed with some limitations.

Planning to try this soap applying some inputs I got from this forum.

Again, when I meant natural, I meant it from a lay-person point of view or specifically for people who think the same as I do. In my country, they would prefer a "cleaned out of my kids' diapers kind of CP Soap" than soap with eye catchy green color. I know clays are processed and oxides are so. Even butters and oils do get processed if we go for refined. You will be surprised to know that people here use soap made with cow urine, cow dung(These are considered herbal soap) but would never pick a soap make with lard or tallow. Its its purely personal preference. Here cows' milk, egg for vegan diet. So,if you felt offended I apologize. But that doesn't change what I think about "natural" in soap. Its a grey area and its individual choice to look at it they way they want.

Thanks

 

[JJulia]

Another article I found related to my post is

Clear Transparent Soap from Scratch - Quick Method

This is for people who are not familiar with this method like me.
NOTE: People who are aware of this, please ignore. Dont came back and say that I did not frame by query correctly or any other sarcastic comment.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Don't we say it completely saponified in the process? Its each one's point of view. Many gets upset if we say"chemical-free". They have the argument that even water is a chemical. I agree. But still when people say "chemical-free" it means "harmful chemicals". So let leave it here. I understand that u dont agree with the word natural. U could just ignore it. Likewise, I also have my own theory. Let respect each other's point of view, least we can ignore it.
Again, I thank that you carified some of my queries.

I meant this in a slightly different context. The word “natural” is either taken rigorously (aka the only thing you're allowed to would be harvesting soapberries from your own soapberry tree), or people have to agree on a consensus about it. One type of such consensus is to overlook the NaOH part (NaOH is a large-volume staple chemical, and though it is “not natural”, it is ecologically as harmless as a chemical can be) in the utilitarian sense: that any syndet is more chemical synthesis steps (as well as biological decay steps) away from “natural”, than simple soaps made with NaOH.
Towards “harmful” – harmful for whom? A coconut soap at 0% SF can be very unpleasant to use on the skin, while there are very mild syndets that are so much more gentle. And lather more, and less water hardness sensitive (less waste, less scum), pH skin neutral, yet still are easily biodegradable.
Can a lard soap be considered “not harmful” from the point of view of pigs? Can a palm oil soap be “natural” when you look at satellite photos of Borneo or Sumatra and see how the checkerboards of palm plantations ruthlessly eat into rainforests? Can GMO canola or soy be “natural”? How to rationalise shipping of ingredients half around the globe? NaOH made from sea water is an outright non-issue amongst these real problems.

Another article I found related to my post is

Clear Transparent Soap from Scratch - Quick Method

Great find . Usually, recipes for transparent/M&P soaps are presented as if they were a godsend. There are very few sources out there that really discuss how they came up with a particular recipe, and present the steps in between, fine-tuning etc. Great enabling from Lovin'Soap to guide people to the pros and cons of different solvent recipes, so that they don't have to find this out again by themselves.

 

[JJulia]

I meant this in a slightly different context. The word “natural” is either taken rigorously (aka the only thing you're allowed to would be harvesting soapberries from your own soapberry tree), or people have to agree on a consensus about it. One type of such consensus is to overlook the NaOH part (NaOH is a large-volume staple chemical, and though it is “not natural”, it is ecologically as harmless as a chemical can be) in the utilitarian sense: that any syndet is more chemical synthesis steps (as well as biological decay steps) away from “natural”, than simple soaps made with NaOH.
Towards “harmful” – harmful for whom? A coconut soap at 0% SF can be very unpleasant to use on the skin, while there are very mild syndets that are so much more gentle. And lather more, and less water hardness sensitive (less waste, less scum), pH skin neutral, yet still are easily biodegradable.
Can a lard soap be considered “not harmful” from the point of view of pigs? Can a palm oil soap be “natural” when you look at satellite photos of Borneo or Sumatra and see how the checkerboards of palm plantations ruthlessly eat into rainforests? Can GMO canola or soy be “natural”? How to rationalise shipping of ingredients half around the globe? NaOH made from sea water is an outright non-issue amongst these real problems.


Great find . Usually, recipes for transparent/M&P soaps are presented as if they were a godsend. There are very few sources out there that really discuss how they came up with a particular recipe, and present the steps in between, fine-tuning etc. Great enabling from Lovin'Soap to guide people to the pros and cons of different solvent recipes, so that they don't have to find this out again by themselves.

Ur one sentence says it all( "The word “natural” is either taken rigorously (aka the only thing you're allowed to would be harvesting soapberries from your own soapberry tree), or people have to agree on a consensus about it"). IT CAN NEVER HAPPEN. Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion. That way I respect yours. And to debate on an issue which is not directly related to this thread in here can be avoided.
I am fine if the thread ends here as I got what I was looking for. Actually I took the cues from first your post and I found what I was looking for. Thank Again.

 

[TheGecko]

Again, when I meant natural, I meant it from a lay-person point of view or specifically for people who think the same as I do. In my country, they would prefer a "cleaned out of my kids' diapers kind of CP Soap" than soap with eye catchy green color. I know clays are processed and oxides are so. Even butters and oils do get processed if we go for refined. You will be surprised to know that people here use soap made with cow urine, cow dung(These are considered herbal soap) but would never pick a soap make with lard or tallow. Its its purely personal preference. Here cows' milk, egg for vegan diet. So,if you felt offended I apologize. But that doesn't change what I think about "natural" in soap. Its a grey area and its individual choice to look at it they way they want.

Interesting that you would say that since some of the most popular soap brands in India come in 'eye catchy' colors. My boss is from Punjab and his wife, SIL and mother have all chosen brighter colors. I'll have to ask again which States the other two ladies in the office come from (I am really bad about remembering things that I cannot pronounce), but they also seem to like brighter colors. You can see an example of some of my soaps in another thread.

Not at all surprised about what folks will put in bath, body and healthcare products. I grew up poor and in an area when folks had many 'home remedies' and I've been fortunate enough to work for a few multi-cultural companies over the years and am always interested in learning.

I personally was not offended, as you said, it's a purely personal preference, but you did come across as being a little condescending. I used to belong to a 'natural' soap group because I wanted to learn more about EOs and 'natural colorants and OMG, you would have thought I had killed puppies and kittens when I said that I had used FOs and Micas (not to mention...gasp...Palm Oil). If I hadn't left on my on accord I'm sure I would have been tarred and feathered and run out of 'town'.

Terms like "natural" and "organic" are VERY subjective. I make Goat Milk Soap. I started out using Evaporated Goat Milk, then went to Goat Milk from the health food section at my local grocery store, then bought it straight from the goat from a local farm and have recently started experimenting with Goat Milk Powder because the local goat lady is retiring. So far, none of my testers have noticed any difference between the various sources of GM. As it should be because it's still goat milk...the only difference is how it is processed. But there are those who would argue (and have) that only the milk that comes from the farm is 'natural' and 'organic'. Yet...doesn't it all come from the farm?

Good luck on your clear soap.

 

[ScentimentallyYours]

Thanks Sentimentally Yours,
Yes, I also had the same thought. I just wanted to confirm it.

When you rebatch, you could try adding 1 tablespoon of yogurt per pound of oils and 1 teaspoon of sodium lactate to help make the rebatch soap batter more fluid. I’m not sure, due to limited noodling experience, if you should use full water or a water discount in creating the base. I can imagine a case being made for either. I would be tempted to go with a water discount so I could choose other liquids to add during the rebatch. Please post pics when you have them!

I still have jasmine absolute in my refrigerator that came from Coimbatore 18 years ago. Any chance you can access some jasmine concrete to use in rebatched soap? The fragrance may hold up in the finished soap since it won’t be chewed up by the lye.

 

[JJulia]

When you rebatch, you could try adding 1 tablespoon of yogurt per pound of oils and 1 teaspoon of sodium lactate to help make the rebatch soap batter more fluid. I’m not sure, due to limited noodling experience, if you should use full water or a water discount in creating the base. I can imagine a case being made for either. I would be tempted to go with a water discount so I could choose other liquids to add during the rebatch. Please post pics when you have them!

I still have jasmine absolute in my refrigerator that came from Coimbatore 18 years ago. Any chance you can access some jasmine concrete to use in rebatched soap? The fragrance may hold up in the finished soap since it won’t be chewed up by the lye.

Hi,
With related to my post, I was looking for a clear soap made using cold processed method. I think I got the lead. So might not go for rebatching.
I am living in Coimbatore. U have been there? Wow.Are u looking for a supplier for jasmine concrete?I have never purchased one. So got to search. Will let you know if I find one. Also, when I make my clear soap, I will post the pic.

Thanks

 

[josianeg]

You're talking about "Rebatching". It's where you take Hot or Cold Processed soap, grate it up, but it in a crock pot/slow cooker or double-boiler, add Distilled Water to 'melt' it down, add scent and colorants and stick it in a mold. As for using it immediately...yes and no. While the soap is perfectly safe to use as soon as it cools down, you still want to let it cure for a week or two as to evaporate the added water.

The Pros to Rebatching is that that the soap has already going through saponification so you don't have to work with lye or wear safety gear. It doesn't take a four to six weeks to cure and clean up is a snap. The Cons is that since the soap has already gone through saponification, you can't customize it beyond adding scent and colorants. The soap is of a thick, rough texture so you can't do swirls or even layers. And you have to be careful with using scents (FOs/EOs) that have a low flashpoint since Rebatching, like Hot Process, requires higher temperatures, so you scent can burn off and/or fade quickly.



Wow...really?!? My soap may not be 'natural' in your eyes because sometimes I use Micas and FOs, but at least I make it from scratch as opposed to using someone's effect and passing it off as my own. Yeah...insulting to be sure, but no less so than what you said above. And I have to point out that "natural" is subjective. Poison Oak/Ivy is 'natural', Deadly Nightshade is 'natural', so Is Water Hemlock, White Snakeroot, Castor Bean, Rosary Bean and Oleander.

It may come as a shock to you, but those 'natural' clays aren't just taken from the Earth, ground up and put in a jar. They have been isolated from the soil and then processed to remove impurities and contaminates. Commercially prepared plant powders are also processed to remove impurities and contaminates.

I started out using EOs, but using them is more work that I want to do because you are stuck with single scents unless you get into blending them.; they are expensive in comparison to FOs and they can be a heck of a lot more dangerous than FOs. And I tried some plant powders...it's NOT WYSIWYG. Colors can fade or morph or be completely different. Take Spinach powder...it's a beautiful green in M&P, but looks like something I cleaned out of my kids' diapers in CP Soap.

And let's not forget arsenic (As) and mercury (Hg) which are both deadly and elements of the periodic table...

It doesn't get more natural than this!

As a pharmacist, I've had to debunk this myth of "natural products are safer than chemical drugs" time and time again.

Lab created drugs (same goes for fragrances) are no more chemical than their "natural" counterparts.

Mostly everything in the universe is composed of atoms and is therefore chemical in nature.

The human body is at 99% composed of: oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, carbon, calcium, phosphorus.