Can Anyone Help me ?

[emmasoapygilbert]

Hello,

I tried to make cold process soap for the first time last night. I mixed 295g caustic soda with 900ml water, then mixed in 800ml vegetable oil, 800ml olive oil and 500g melted coconut oil. I stirred it all together for 40 minutes. I then split it into 3 pots. I added oats, honey and lemon oil to one pot, floral essential oil and dried rose petals to another, and lavender flowers, essential oil and green clay to the other pot.

This morning (10 hours later) the soap has split in the moulds. Lots of oil is floating on top. I did a bit of research and realised I didn't get 'trace' and therefore there's been no saponification. Stupid, stupid me. I spent a lot of money on the ingredients (Kirstie Allsops's recipe on Channel 4 website made it all sound so simple). I've read that I can remelt the soap batches. Please, pleasse, please, can I do this ? And how ?

Many, many thanks

Emma

 

[maiseycat]

I am a new soaper too, so what I am about to say comes from what I have learned from reading, not experience. I would wait for a more experienced member to respond before taking anything I say to heart.


I am a little confused by your recipe, as some of it is in weight, and some is in volume. All the advice I have read and followed when I made my soap is that you should run any recipe through a lye calculator, like the one at www.soapcalc.net, as even the most experienced people can make a typo when posting a recipe. It's also much more accurate to do all the measuring by weight, which is important so you do not end up with a lye heavy bar. Nothing you can do about that now, but something to keep in mind for next time I googled the source you mentioned, and it seems many people have made this one, so it is probably ok.

You can probably save by rebatching, there is a good discussion in a recent thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34011&p=300430&hilit=how+to+rebatch#p300430 which I found pretty easy to follow, even as a newbie. Since you didn't leave anything out, you won't need to add more oils, just put in a crockpot/doubleboiler and cook it. I think it would probably be best to mix the three different kinds though, to ensure all the oils and lye mix properly.

Don't let this get you down. I have been reading through this forum as well as other sources almost obsessively for awhile, and one thing I have learned is mistakes happen to even the most experienced soapers.

 

[retmcp]

Hello Emma, this has happened to me on more than one occasion and I am not a learner! If by some chance when you read this, your mixture is still liquid or partly, just tip it back into your soap pot and warm it up, keep stirring or stick blending until you see trace. I learnt years ago that trace was when you could draw a figure 8 on top with the soap batter with your spoon or blender and it stayed there momentarily. In my opinion it is better to have a thicker trace when you are a learner, even if you have to glop your soap into the mould. Hope this helps a little. Loretta

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

Lets talk recipe first:

It's best to use either all standard or all metric WEIGHT measurements. Fluid measurements (ml) are not as accurate as weight measurements (grams) for soaping.

So lets say your recipe looks like this-
Olive Oil 800g (you used ml)
Vegetable Oil 800g (you used ml...Canola? Soybean?)
Coconut Oil 500g
Water 900g (you used ml)
NaOH 295g

Using SoapCalcPro with full water (38% water) and a 5% Superfat, for the above recipe, you should have used 798g Water and 293.5g NaOH using SAP values for Soybean Oil for your veggie oil, OR 290.7g NaOH using SAP values for Canola Oil for your veggie oil.

Your soap may turn out lye heavy, or with a very low/no superfat, but that's hard to determine if you used fluid and weight measurements. The 102g extra water probably added to your trace time and will take longer to set up to unmold, and longer cure time to evaporate that extra water out.

Any time you find a new recipe, whether from a book or the Internet or a soaper friend, always run it through a lye calculator, like SoapCalc or Brambleberry's or MMS. There's lots of bad info out there, even from "professional soapers"...I just watched a YouTube video last night where a "professional soaper" said she used 6 oz of Clove Bud essential oil in a BAR of soap because it was good for warts :shock: even in a 12 pound batch, I have NEVER used that much Clove (can be highly irritating to skin)...I won't even go into her "medical claim"...so don't take everything you find in the soaping world at face value.

Second: you say you mixed the lye and added the oils to it. You should always ADD THE LYE TO YOUR OILS, not the other way around.

Third: as you've already determined, you got separation in the mold, probably because you did not get a true trace.
This is salvageable IF you are able to dump it ALL back into the soap pot to stir back together. A stick blender will make short work of this and you'll get trace a lot quicker than 40 minutes.

Now lets talk about how you can save this by REBATCHING...I hate to throw out soap that can be saved, or at least attempt to save. You would want to do this with your 3 batches separately so that you don't mix scents.

I'll tell you how I prefer to do it, which is in a crock pot. If you use one of those crock pot liners, it will make this a lot easier.

Dump ALL the contents of your molds into your crock pot set on LOW...get as much of what's in the molds as possible so that you don't lose any lye or oils.
Either with a stick blender in short bursts (easiest) or a slotted spoon or whisk, stir your mixture to trace...until it looks like pudding and doesn't separate when left alone for a few minutes.
Once it reaches trace, let it cook until it starts to liquefy (it won't be exactly "liquid"), then stir again. You want to cook it until it gets to a gel/Vaseline stage. If it puffs up or tries to creep out of the pot, just stir it back down. Then I would add 50-100g more Olive Oil to give a little more superfat and hopefully use up any free lye you may have from improper measurements. Stir and cook for another 5 minutes. Remove a small blob, let it cool, and then zap test it (touch your tongue to it to see if t feels like a 9 volt battery). If it zaps, cook it a little longer and try again. If it doesn't zap, mold it and proceed as usual. If you use a crock pot liner, you can just remove the liner, soap and all, tie off the open end, cut a corner off the bottom, and squeeze it out into the mold like cake icing. Easy to clean up!

If you don't have a crock pot, put all contents of your mold into your soap pot, add that extra 50-100g of Olive Oil, stick blend or stir to trace, leave it a minute to make sure it doesn't separate, and mold it as usual.

I hope I didn't make my explanation too complicated

 

[Seifenblasen]

I then split it into 3 pots. I added oats, honey and lemon oil to one pot, floral essential oil and dried rose petals to another, and lavender flowers, essential oil and green clay to the other pot.

Just a little suggestion. If this is the very first time you make CP/HP soap, I would leave out all the additives (or at least keep things simple by just using one or maybe two) and make a batch of simple, good soap before playing with multiple oats, honey, fragrance/essential oils, clays, etc.

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

I then split it into 3 pots. I added oats, honey and lemon oil to one pot, floral essential oil and dried rose petals to another, and lavender flowers, essential oil and green clay to the other pot.

Just a little suggestion. If this is the very first time you make CP/HP soap, I would leave out all the additives (or at least keep things simple by just using one or maybe two) and make a batch of simple, good soap before playing with multiple oats, honey, fragrance/essential oils, clays, etc.

I second this!

 

[thefarmerdaughter]

So I looked up this Kristie woman. Seems as thou she knows a little bit about a lot of things.Which is nice But here are some resources strictly for soap
https://standeyo.com/News_Files/Soap/Soapmaking.html

http://teachsoap.com/

http://www.colebrothers.com/soap/oils.html

 

[Seifenblasen]

I think this is her (this Kristie woman)'s recipe:

http://www.channel4.com/4homes/how-to/c ... -make-soap

It seems a bit irresponsible to post a recipe like that, where coconut oil and "vegetable fat" (I assume she meant shortening) are used interchangeably, and measurements for liquid oils given in ml instead of g.

 

[thefarmerdaughter]

What concerns me is she makes it sound like its so easy. Like someone who's never made soap or done any research can roll out of bed one morning and make a beautiful bar, without any planing. Decorating the soap is more important than recommending a good book for beginners :roll: Something stinks on that website, and its not the soap.

 

[maiseycat]

I'm a total noob, and besides what has already been pointed out, what concerns me most about the instructions is this section:

Make sure you get all the measurements correct - the balance between the acids and alkalis in your mixture has to be spot on, or your soap won't work as soap!

No mention at all of lye heavy = caustic, this makes it sound like if your measurements are off, you'll get something that won't lather.

It also seems like she is setting people up for failure. There is no mention of trace, or how to look for it in the step by step instructions, they do mention a change in colour and texture, but that happens at emulsion, too, imo. For me, if this was my only exposure to cp soap making instructions, I would probably see the change from the clear oils to the opaque look they take on when first mixed with lye as that change.

The instructions also have them curing the soap in loaf form for 6 weeks and then cutting it into bars. Which will be a very difficult and crumbly procedure, I think.

 

[brandnew]

since you're new also I'd try making a small batch first. That way if something does go wrong you don't feel so daunted by the amount you 'haven't' made! :wink: I KNOW!!! DON'T get discouraged!!! It'll come out right esp. if you use the soapcalc each time. GOOD LUCK

btw Try getting a (used is cheaper!!) book on amazon...it helps to look at great photos for encouragement. I really liked Melinda Coss' soap making book.

 

[Seifenblasen]

Please don't feel discouraged. It really is not you, but a lousy formula with unclear (and to a certain degree, incorrect) instruction.

Agree with Brandnew that you should try a smaller batch next time, but not too small. Somewhere between 750g to 1000g of oils and fats (total) might be good. The reason is since most of us use kitchen scale and not lab scale in soap making, there will be tiny inaccuracy in measurement. Such inaccuracy would affect the results if you were to make a minuscule batch but not as much as if you were making a slightly larger batch.

I assume you live in the UK and some of the books we talk about may or maybe be readily available. A few reliable soap making websites are:

http://www.soapqueen.com
http://www.soap-making-resource.com/

Somebody mentioned Kathy Miller's website. I like to read it because there are tons of information, but her recipes usually makes a huge amount of soap and not very "refined".

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

I think this is her (this Kristie woman)'s recipe:

http://www.channel4.com/4homes/how-to/c ... -make-soap

It seems a bit irresponsible to post a recipe like that, where coconut oil and "vegetable fat" (I assume she meant shortening) are used interchangeably, and measurements for liquid oils given in ml instead of g.

I just looked at this article...and besides the incorrect measurement issue, she pours hot oils into lye solution :x
Then I read the comments...and this is the reason you shouldn't just throw recipes around and expect that people will do their own research on actual soapmaking:

TRACEY
said on 10 April 2011 at 19:12
can you tell me if baking soda is ok to use as i cant find caustic soda
:shock: Really? This one cracked me up

TWINKLE TOES
said on 10 September 2011 at 15:50
I've not seen this particular episode about making soaps but it seems extreme to use caustic soda - surely it will irritate skin?!
:roll: Extreme to use "caustic soda" to make soap? Maybe you should just use "baking soda".

WUSHY
said on 13 July 2011 at 11:02
i have just made mine (now leaving them to solidify for 24hrs) however there seems to be a layer of clear liquid rising to the top is this ment to happen?
:? Of course, if you just read this article and "how easy it is" to make soap, you'd have no idea how to troubleshoot problems like false trace, separation, or lye heaviness.

Ok, ok...I'll stop now... :twisted:

 

[DragonQueenHHP]

I would continue to laugh but them people are a danger O_O

 

[Cake Baby]

TWINKLE TOES
said on 10 September 2011 at 15:50
I've not seen this particular episode about making soaps but it seems extreme to use caustic soda - surely it will irritate skin?!
:roll: Extreme to use "caustic soda" to make soap? Maybe you should just use "baking soda".

HHHAHAHHHAHHHHH. I read those comments as well and was a little worried for those people but your commentary really cracked me up! :mrgreen:

 

[emmasoapygilbert]

Thank you to everyone who has replied. I found the posts both useful and funny. You're right, Kirstie makes it look so easy. I reckon her researchers just posted a recipe without even checking it works. I've tried again and it's all so difficult - I'm going to stick with knitting Christmas presents and I got some 'melt and pour' soap base. I know this is like cheating, but I run my own business and have a baby girl to look after so I don't want to get all stressed out with a kitchen full of caustic soda and blobs of fat ! I'm not giving up though - I'm going to do lots of reading on the subject and succeed (hopefully) at making cold process soap in 2013. It's going to be my New Year's resolution.

Once again, thank you. I'll be thinking of all you soapmakers giving out lovely homemade soaps this Christmas. Enjoy it and congratulate yourselves on succeeding in something that's quite difficult !

Emma x

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

Sounds like you got your hands full! Soapmaking as a hobby shouldn't be stressful...so I'm glad you're not going to pressure yourself into making CP soap for Christmas. :wink: I don't think MP is cheating....it's just a different craft, and not always easier than CP! I don't knit , so I would find that incredibly stressful...I envy those that have the patience for it :mrgreen:
Just keep researching and reading on this forum, and by 2013 you will be making soap with the rest of us! You may find reading posts of people's mistakes and mishaps and the advice they receive just as helpful as tutorials!

 

[Seifenblasen]

I always admire people who can knit!

My second "crafty hobby", aside from soap making, is spinning wool. It is quite absurd as I don't know how to knit. Meanwhile I am accumulating balls of yarn ... :roll:

 

[DragonQueenHHP]

I have had many beautiful melt and pour soaps given to me in the past and they where all very nice to use also

I don't knit , so I would find that incredibly stressful...I envy those that have the patience for it :mrgreen:

lol I know how to knit I just don't have any patience for the counting part so I don't knit I get tired of unkniting when I lose count of what I am doing hehe
I crochet the afghan stitch because I don't have to count

 

[green soap]

Total oil weight 1975.2
Water as percent of oil weight 38 %
Super Fat/Discount -2 %
Lye Concentration 28.409 %
Water : Lye Ratio 2.52:1
Sat : Unsat Ratio 33 : 67
Iodine 83
INS 127

Ingredient Pounds Ounces Grams
Water 1.655 26.476 750.576
Lye - NaOH 0.657 10.506 297.839
# ? Oil/Fat % Pounds Ounces Grams
1 Coconut Oil, 76 deg 25.31 1.102 17.637 500
2 Olive Oil 37.18 1.619 25.905 734.4
3 Soybean Oil 37.51 1.633 26.131 740.8
Totals 100 4.355 69.673 1975.2
Soap Bar Quality Suggested Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 32
Cleansing 12 - 22 17
Conditioning 44 - 69 64
Bubbly 14 - 46 17
Creamy 16 - 48 15
Iodine 41 - 70 83
INS 136 - 165 127
Lauric 12
Myristic 5
Palmitic 12
Stearic 4
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 37
Linoleic 24
Linolenic 3


____________________________________

I entered this recipe into soapcalc and copied most of it above.. We know the density of olive oil, and 'vegetable' oil is usually soy oil (0.918g/cc and 0.926g/cc). So this gives 741g soy oil and 734.4g olive oil for the recipe in question. This recipe has several problems, besides the ones mentioned already.

As you can see, the recipe is lye heavy, almost -2%. So rebatching would involve adding enough oil to make it +5% SF or so, instead of -1.8% or whatever the precise number is. If you are going to add more oil I would suggest molten coconut oil because it will improve the hardness and lathering of your soap. As you see from the numbers above, it is a little weak in these areas. Improving the creaminess would require palm, tallow, or cocoa butters, so let's not go there. You could just add palm too as your missing fat though. Let me know if you want me to calculate how much oil or fat you would need.

The other problem with the recipe, is that full water amount gives us 750g. The density of water is 1 g/cc, so 900 ml water weigh 900g. This is way too much water.

If you re-batch, do not add any extra water, and cook for a long time. This way, the water can be evaporated from the heating of your soap batter on a crockpot or double boiler. The soap will stay soft for a long time even with hot process.

One last? (doubt it) problem with this recipe, is that adding the linolenic and linoleic acids numbers it is a lot more than 16 (27), so the soap might not have a long shelf life. It should be fine if used within 6 - 9 months though, so it is still worth rebatching it. The properties of the soap are not bad. It would be a really conditioning soap.

Oh and I think that knitting is the hardest thing to do and for the life of me I cannot do it.